Kenny Miller

WhitecapsFutbol

I think you guys are forgetting we once had Peter Beardsley, before becoming a Newcastle United Legend... For those who can remember that far back...

the_r2

CannyScot69 said:

ah, c'mon now - you're forgetting big Peter Lorimer and Wee Wullie Johnston back in the late seventies/eighties... :-)

For those who remember back in the early 80s Peter Lorimer took a free kick in the dying moments of the game chipped the ball over the Sounder wall and Seattle keeper to win the game for the Whitecaps. That was pure class.

OldFan

the_r2 said:

CannyScot69 said:

ah, c'mon now - you're forgetting big Peter Lorimer and Wee Wullie Johnston back in the late seventies/eighties... :-)

For those who remember back in the early 80s Peter Lorimer took a free kick in the dying moments of the game chipped the ball over the Sounder wall and Seattle keeper to win the game for the Whitecaps. That was pure class.

Was that the one he took from the 35?

the_r2

OldFan said:

the_r2 said:

CannyScot69 said:

ah, c'mon now - you're forgetting big Peter Lorimer and Wee Wullie Johnston back in the late seventies/eighties... :-)

For those who remember back in the early 80s Peter Lorimer took a free kick in the dying moments of the game chipped the ball over the Sounder wall and Seattle keeper to win the game for the Whitecaps. That was pure class.

Was that the one he took from the 35?

It was from just outside the 18 yard box. The game was broadcast on the old BCTV by John McKeachie and ex-Cap Buzz Parsons at the Kingdome. I know Lorimer has taken free kicks from 35 yards out, he was nicknamed Thunderfoot.

DavidCross · Post edited by DavidCross at 2012-07-31 21:55:51

Lorimer from kickoff vs Malmo at Empire.

CannyScot69

OldFan said:

the_r2 said:

CannyScot69 said:

ah, c'mon now - you're forgetting big Peter Lorimer and Wee Wullie Johnston back in the late seventies/eighties... :-)

For those who remember back in the early 80s Peter Lorimer took a free kick in the dying moments of the game chipped the ball over the Sounder wall and Seattle keeper to win the game for the Whitecaps. That was pure class.

Was that the one he took from the 35?

Think so. Warms my heart to know there's other guys on here who remember the old Empire Field days. I was ten years old and the Caps were (are) my boyhood club - I remember my Dad taking me there for midweek games when he'd finished work for our "guy time" - golden memories. I hope I'll take my son, named after my Dad, to a few games before too long...

Bad_Gones

CannyScot69 said: I hope I'll take my son, named after my Dad, to a few games before too long...

Did that myself a number of times this year, as did many in our season's ticket group. Magic. Enjoy.

Fynnsky

Bad_Gones said:

CannyScot69 said: I hope I'll take my son, named after my Dad, to a few games before too long...

Did that myself a number of times this year, as did many in our season's ticket group. Magic. Enjoy.

At what age did you start doing this? I've been considering it, but I think my eldest is still way to "toddlerish" to enjoy it

Bad_Gones

Well, there's that as well. My "kids" are now 18 and 21, so they would have been 13 and 16 when i started bringing them to games (since that's when I started going again). A great way to start really little ones on the game is the PDL and reserve matches. They're usually free so it's not big deal if you leave early due to Junior getting bored, and you get to see a good game.

valleywhitecaps

I have been bringing mine since he was 5 weeks old:)

SAFC_Yank

I started bringing my eldest to Swangard regularly when he was about 9 - he's 16 now. The younger came to the occasional game, and got a season ticket last year when he was 10. I took them to games when they were younger, but I'd hesitate to buy season tickets younger.

MCMLXXIX

This is a great recount of the 1979 run -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/dec/17/vancouver-whitecaps-soccer

Lefty · Post edited by Lefty at 2012-08-01 15:45:07

My son was just turned six when we did two + seasons of Wimbledon matches at Selhurst Park. When we came back in 2000 - I think. Peter Beardsley came out for a testimonial and played for the Caps Vs MLS side San Jose I think. My son was still small enough for Beardsley to pick up, set on the railings and get a photo together. We were season ticket holders for Caps in 2001, when he was 8. Good little football he was. He is turning 19 now. We never have to ask each other if we want to do something together.

CardiffCity1927

Hello Guys,

Cardiff City fan here. Kenny didn't quite cut it for us in the Championship, your supporters will either love him or hate him. He's fit, never stops running but his finishing isn't always the best. My guess is he'll score around 10-15 goals for you this season if he's a regular in the side. If his confidence is ok maybe a few more but don't go expecting miracles!! Good luck for the season, many Cardiff fans like myself will be watching out for your results.

theonewolf

CardiffCity1927 said: Hello Guys,

Cardiff City fan here. Kenny didn't quite cut it for us in the Championship, your supporters will either love him or hate him. He's fit, never stops running but his finishing isn't always the best. My guess is he'll score around 10-15 goals for you this season if he's a regular in the side. If his confidence is ok maybe a few more but don't go expecting miracles!! Good luck for the season, many Cardiff fans like myself will be watching out for your results.

Season here is more than half over. I would be over the moon if he gets 10 goals.

CardiffCity1927

theonewolf said:

CardiffCity1927 said: Hello Guys,

Cardiff City fan here. Kenny didn't quite cut it for us in the Championship, your supporters will either love him or hate him. He's fit, never stops running but his finishing isn't always the best. My guess is he'll score around 10-15 goals for you this season if he's a regular in the side. If his confidence is ok maybe a few more but don't go expecting miracles!! Good luck for the season, many Cardiff fans like myself will be watching out for your results.

Season here is more than half over. I would be over the moon if he gets 10 goals.

Ah, right, make that between 5 & 10 goals then.

vancouversoccerman · Post edited by vancouversoccerman at 2012-08-02 16:40:33

So...the price tag on Mr.Miller is $1.2 million...about $900,000 more than Montreal's signing of Nesta.

Ok Kenny..Hard work alone isn't enough. Show us your goals! (You really need to now!)

Chris

Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

OldFan

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

he has to out perform Hassli because Hassli under performed, and he is essentially his replacement.

And, we don't want people calling him the "second Scottish Jarju" on the Caps.

DavidStadnyk

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

Canadianspur

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

We don't know he's making twice as much. Remember that the transferr fee get factored into those numbers somehow. Robson was out of contract so can on a free transefer.

DavidStadnyk

Canadianspur said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

We don't know he's making twice as much. Remember that the transferr fee get factored into those numbers somehow. Robson was out of contract so can on a free transefer.

I guess my point is that obviously you have to factor in the entire wage bill, not just the cap hit.

Chris

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

That's not at all what I said. The rules of this league make it such that any DP counts the same as any other. Anything on top of that is the owner's business. From a competition standpoint, to be worth that DP slot, he needs to be better than the other strikers and he needs to outperform his predecessor.

I think comparing salaries to other players in the league is a fruitless exercise in MLS because nobody's paying enough money I salary that the wage bills are crippling the club. All I'm looking at is value for cap hit.

Chris

DavidStadnyk said:

Canadianspur said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

We don't know he's making twice as much. Remember that the transferr fee get factored into those numbers somehow. Robson was out of contract so can on a free transefer.

I guess my point is that obviously you have to factor in the entire wage bill, not just the cap hit.

Posted while I was typing. This is what I disagree with. If the owners want to toss their money around, that's their business, unless it starts impacting the performance of the club.

Jay_Duke

Chris said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Canadianspur said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

We don't know he's making twice as much. Remember that the transferr fee get factored into those numbers somehow. Robson was out of contract so can on a free transefer.

I guess my point is that obviously you have to factor in the entire wage bill, not just the cap hit.

Posted while I was typing. This is what I disagree with. If the owners want to toss their money around, that's their business, unless it starts impacting the performance of the club.

So, say we signed Kaka and paid him 6 million a season.

Since his cap hit is the same as everyone else's, you'd be fine with Kakas performance being on par with Barry Robson, despite us paying him oodles more?

cixceven

Jay_Duke said: So, say we signed Kaka and paid him 6 million a season.

Since his cap hit is the same as everyone else's, you'd be fine with Kakas performance being on par with Barry Robson, despite us paying him oodles more?

Making the assumption that Barry Robson was playing well enough to be considered "earning his DP spot," I would be. The owners might not be, which might shorten how long Mr. Ka was here, but he would have no negative effect on the salary cap of the team based on that kind of performance.

DavidStadnyk

Jay_Duke said:

Chris said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Canadianspur said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

We don't know he's making twice as much. Remember that the transferr fee get factored into those numbers somehow. Robson was out of contract so can on a free transefer.

I guess my point is that obviously you have to factor in the entire wage bill, not just the cap hit.

Posted while I was typing. This is what I disagree with. If the owners want to toss their money around, that's their business, unless it starts impacting the performance of the club.

So, say we signed Kaka and paid him 6 million a season.

Since his cap hit is the same as everyone else's, you'd be fine with Kakas performance being on par with Barry Robson, despite us paying him oodles more?

This

Jay_Duke

But even as a supporter, wouldn't you be disappointed that a player who was brought in to provide a 6 million dollar a year service is only providing a 350k a year service? Wouldn't you want the club to spend its 6 million on a player who will provide a 6 million dollar performance?

Brenton

What would that 6 million dollar performance entail? Henry has how many goals this season compared to Wondolowski?

You pay someone that much money not just for their performance on the pitch. You bring in a name, excitement, shirt sales, etc. Is Beckham the best midfielder in the league? Not at all, but he adds so much off the pitch that it's worth it. I would hope that if the club brought in a player of that stature ($6m/year) that they would bring more than a lot of goals, because in this league you can get a lot of goals for far cheaper than $6m/year.

Chris

A little, perhaps, but I also think that the impact of bringing in a single player on $6M into an MLS roster will not be significantly greater than bringing in a $1.5M player.

Jay_Duke

Chris said: A little, perhaps, but I also think that the impact of bringing in a single player on $6M into an MLS roster will not be significantly greater than bringing in a $1.5M player.

Obviously, as a player can't possibly be five times better, at least not literally, and justify a salary five times more expensive, but the point I am making is that I would hope a six million dollar player outperforms a million dollar one despite their cap hit being the same.

Canadianspur

So to be sucessful by some of the defintitions here Miller must be the best striker on the team to justify his DP spot. He must outscore Mattocks.

Bad_Gones

This assumes the only way one measured a striker's performance is through goals. While goals are important I think we can all agree other factors come into play. As Brenton said, the dollar figure paid for a player isn't just about performance anyway.

Jay_Duke

And I think it's fair to say Mattocks is likely outperforming his salary. At least so far.

Lord_Bob

Mattocks is certainly outperforming his cap hit of nothing.

Canadianspur

Bad_Gones said: This assumes the only way one measured a striker's performance is through goals. While goals are important I think we can all agree other factors come into play. As Brenton said, the dollar figure paid for a player isn't just about performance anyway.

I agree with that but not everyone on here does. They measure a strike simply by his goal output.

bili

Chris said:

DavidStadnyk said:

Chris said: Why? The cap hit is the same as Hassli, the same as Robson, the same as any other DP. He has to perform well, but there's no onus on him to outperform any other DP.

Really? You don't expect the highest paid player to produce at a higher level? I'm sure those who decided to pay him twice as much as Robson do.

That's not at all what I said. The rules of this league make it such that any DP counts the same as any other. Anything on top of that is the owner's business. From a competition standpoint, to be worth that DP slot, he needs to be better than the other strikers and he needs to outperform his predecessor.

I think comparing salaries to other players in the league is a fruitless exercise in MLS because nobody's paying enough money I salary that the wage bills are crippling the club. All I'm looking at is value for cap hit.

wow - that's an interesting perspective. Naive too if you ask me.

If he makes $1.2M per season... I'm sorry, but he has to perform at a much higher level than someone making $400K. I don't care that their cap-hit is $350K each.

The owner has given management a real budget. If he doesn't perform to $1.2M standards, then the Caps should find someone who does. I'm sure there are many players in Europe that would take $1.2M and outperform Miller.

Cap hit is one thing but you can't look at it in a vacuum.

Chris

I'm just looking at the reverse of your last statement, man. Salary is one thing, but you can't look at it in a vacuum. Trying to figure out which player from Europe would accept $1.2M to come to Canada, to a league with a history of high-priced import failures, and succeed, seems pointless to me. When evaluating the performance of a DP, the cap hit is a convenient yardstick. Is he worth the use of one of these 3 spots and a $350k hit? If so, he's not hurting the team performance-wise.

Management can assess whether he's worth that extra salary they're paying him on their own, and there's much more than on-field performance that goes into that.

Jay_Duke

You're missing the point.

He IS hurting the team performance if the same amount of salary could be spent on a more effective player, regardless of salary cap hit.

Chris

I'm not missing the point at all, I'm disagreeing with it. I think the unique salary structure of MLS means that additional salary paid to a DP doesn't necessarily hurt the club's performance. It may hurt the owner's pocketbook, but in our case I don't think that's the same thing.

Seathanaich

Thanks for offering an interesting perspective on this issue, Chris.

brrrrrradley

Chris said: I'm not missing the point at all, I'm disagreeing with it. I think the unique salary structure of MLS means that additional salary paid to a DP doesn't necessarily hurt the club's performance. It may hurt the owner's pocketbook, but in our case I don't think that's the same thing.

I would argue that as long as that extra paid by owner doesn't trickle down to the fans to pick up the tab, then fine. But you get a big name coming in on a "big" salary who doesn't perform up to some type of standard, it can have the opposite on team perception. Toronto has "big" signing on large contracts, but their team is crap and attendance has suffered as a result. Tickets there are expensive and increase every year in price for an overall poor product.

I understand the ownership group here is much different with their goals in relation to MLSE, but how long would Mallet take a huge hit in the pocketbook without a corresponding increase in return both financially and on the field?

I agree with you in theory and it SHOULD work like that but a salary cap really hasn't saved NHL fans around here from a continual corresponding increase in ticket prices, has it?

cixceven

Jay_Duke said: You're missing the point.

He IS hurting the team performance if the same amount of salary could be spent on a more effective player, regardless of salary cap hit.

You are looking at the opportunity cost of spending that $X million on a given player versus on a different player. That takes no consideration of the fact that there is a salary cap. Chris is including the cap in his considerations (as do I). 3 players making $400,000 each a year, for all intents and purposes in terms of roster construction in MLS, are identical to 3 players making $1,000,000 each. It doesn't matter, in terms of cap use, if they are equal; the higher paid player doesn't use up more cap resources than the lower paid player.

I do understand what you are arguing, and if the cap is not considered then you are certainly right. But this league has a cap, and that needs to be considered.

slamo

Lord_Bob said: Mattocks is certainly outperforming his cap hit of nothing.

Well, he's out performing me and we have the same cap hit.

bili

Chris said: I'm just looking at the reverse of your last statement, man. Salary is one thing, but you can't look at it in a vacuum. Trying to figure out which player from Europe would accept $1.2M to come to Canada, to a league with a history of high-priced import failures, and succeed, seems pointless to me. When evaluating the performance of a DP, the cap hit is a convenient yardstick. Is he worth the use of one of these 3 spots and a $350k hit? If so, he's not hurting the team performance-wise.

Management can assess whether he's worth that extra salary they're paying him on their own, and there's much more than on-field performance that goes into that.

So let's go back to the extreme example.

We pay $5M for someone who has a $350K cap hit. There was rumours that it would be anyone of 5 players. 4 of them go somewhere else and play excellent. We get the dud who plays about as well as Robson but nowhere near the class of Kaka, Ronaldinho, Totti and Del Piero who play up to world class standards for their team.

You still think that the cap hit is the measure we should evaluate the player on?

It will probably be a hybrid of both as the dollar amount is hypothetical but the cap hit is too simplistic.

prawnsideFC

Jay_Duke said:

He IS hurting the team performance if the same amount of salary could be spent on a more effective player, regardless of salary cap hit.

This is my view as well, however, I have a feeling Miller will be more worth his 1.2 mil than hassli was at 700k

Jay_Duke

I suppose we'll agree to disagree then. Even as a supporter, I'd be spitting mad if my club was wasting millions on a player when they could spend those same dollars and get a better performance.

vancouversoccerman · Post edited by vancouversoccerman at 2012-08-03 10:34:36

I really liked reading the interesting perspectives to my salary post. You all make some very valid points on both sides. Taking it all into account here's my renewed perspective.

The name Kenny Miller isn't expected to sell a single extra ticket for the Caps, or MLS. Hopefully, his on field performance will.
At his salary, yes...he needs to either score at Mattock's rate, or be part of the reason Mattocks continues to score. He needs to be the reason we're winning matches.
In the eyes of fans, players and owners, dollars are dollars. Forget the Cap hit...Kenny Miller is almost certainly the highest paid player in club history. I think the expectation and pressure should be on him to lead us to the promised land. As we see with Nesta, 1.2 million can give you a lot of options for a DP.

CannyScot69 · Post edited by CannyScot69 at 2012-08-03 12:49:57

vancouversoccerman said: I really liked reading the interesting perspectives to my salary post. You all make some very valid points on both sides. Taking it all into account here's my renewed perspective.

The name Kenny Miller isn't expected to sell a single extra ticket for the Caps, or MLS. Hopefully, his on field performance will.

At his salary, yes...he needs to either score at Mattock's rate, or be part of the reason Mattocks continues to score. He needs to be the reason we're winning matches.

In the eyes of fans, players and owners, dollars are dollars. Forget the Cap hit...Kenny Miller is almost certainly the highest paid player in club history. I think the expectation and pressure should be on him to lead us to the promised land. As we see with Nesta, 1.2 million can give you a lot of options for a DP.

IT will be interesting to see if MR plays Kenny as a striker or a producer. At this stage in his career and given recent form he may be better as the latter. Basically KM has had two golden periods in his career - at Wolves and at Rangers before he went to Turkey. That apart, the issues everyone here have commented on - he misses lots, he can't often hit the ball in the air - may continue to plague him.

Let's hope I'm wrong

Lefty

While some condemn the Caps for picking up older players such as the 32 year old Kenny Miller, Cardiff replace him with the even more senior Iceland international Heidar Helguson tipping the age scale at 34 years.

Having watched him a couple times last season at QPR I must say he does make the most of his chances.

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