NotAHappyPuppy

GoF

The problem is though that our strikers aren't putting the ball in the net enough.

That's why we're sitting on a negative goal difference.

They may be talented but they aren't performing the way we need them to.

Jay_Duke

GoF said: The problem is though that our strikers aren't putting the ball in the net enough.

That's why we're sitting on a negative goal difference.

They may be talented but they aren't performing the way we need them to.

Has that always been the strikers fault? I'd say its only 50-50.

Rennies tactics, especially early in the season were very defensive, and midfield service has still been hit and miss all season with our strikers being very isolated at times.

Bad_Gones

I don't have the stats of Shots On Net vs. Goals but I'm going to guess we're pretty low in that department ... and THAT is down to the strikers.

ynwasouthside

Miller can score with his head. It's all well and good to say get some wingers, but you need someone to convert those crosses.

Jay_Duke

Bad_Gones said: I don't have the stats of Shots On Net vs. Goals but I'm going to guess we're pretty low in that department ... and THAT is down to the strikers.

When as a striker, whose job it is to shoot and score, you aren't given the ball in advantageous positions, you begin to take shots in less desirable positions.

I'm just saying there's more to it that "our strikers suck." Hassli has been poor this season. But he hasn't exactly had buckets of glorious chances.

Lefty

Right, then maybe our midfielders haven't been doing their job. Maybe all the love they get is not equal to love the give.

rodderzzz

Lefty said: Right, then maybe our midfielders haven't been doing their job. Maybe all the love they get is not equal to love the give.

In one.

Rico

Just listenting to Fulltime on 1040 right now, and it would seem as though this is a done deal. Hoping it is not a DP signing.

Lou_macari_chippy · Post edited by Lou_macari_chippy at 2012-07-15 22:41:36

If we have lost chiumiento and Le Toux plus cash for Robson and Miller, then we are insane. Doing this in the middle of the season is insane. Our team was a strong cohesive unit, we have been in almost every game we've played and looked like very strong candidates for a play off spot. We are risking it all. Did i mention then word insane yet?

NotAHappyPuppy

G_Zola · Post edited by G_Zola at 2012-07-15 23:05:43

First post, so please don't butcher me. Here's my take:

MR is of the belief that this club is a playoff team. He was also of the belief that, as it stood, they were not good enough to win a championship. The Le Toux/Richards trade was likely always going to happen. As was the Miller signing. Losing Chiumiento may have been a little unexpected. Whether one believes the spin or not is another matter.

Regardless:

Miller Mattocks

Camilo Robson Richards Koffe (diamond)

is a superior lineup in the MLS. The moves have been made in an attempt to give the club time to find their form. It will take some time, but assuming we don't drop off too much, the only expectation should be for this club to reach their potential come playoff time. Hence all the moves right now.

I agree that signing Miller on a non-DP contract, and adding a DP at the rear (cap permitting), would be ideal. But even if this doesn't happen, the club is still positioned to do great things.

OldFan · Post edited by OldFan at 2012-07-15 23:05:24

Lou_macari_chippy said: If we have lost chiumiento and Le Toux plus cash for Robson and Miller, then we are insane. Doing this in the middle of the season is insane. Our team was a strong cohesive unit, we have been in almost every game we've played and looked like very strong candidates for a play off spot. We are risking it all. Did i mention then word insane yet?

NotAHappyPuppy

You really need to see what happens before reacting so strongly.

This is year 1 of a rebuild; it requires Rennie taking risk and using his balls.

Our offence outside of Mattocks has not been good enough . I am excited that Rennie is having the stones to make these types of moves.

GoF · Post edited by GoF at 2012-07-15 23:07:50

Oops. Wrong thread!

Brettness37 · Post edited by Brettness37 at 2012-07-15 23:10:02

It's the transfer window. When else would it happen?

We've had a decent first half, but we aren't intimidating or terrorizing anyone. Losses and ties to the league basement dwellers speak volumes louder than last minute wins against the stronger sides. And the brutal blowouts we've had? I for one want them to tinker and rebuild until we are the head of the table and decimating the opposition regularly. When we are pounding the basement dwellers 4-1 or 5-1 and handling the mid table with ease, then I'll start panicking and calling them nuts when they make a change. Until then I'll grimace when we lose players I like, and wait to see the results before losing my shit.

I'm pretty happy with 2012 over 2011, and hope 2013 has the same kind of progression over 2012. We aren't going to see that progression without personnel changes. I still sting from a few of them from 2011, but I can't argue the current team is not better than last year.

GoF

And as I said above, we're sitting on a minus goal difference. Something needed to happen to change this and we need a midfielder and striker to come in and make that happen.

SAFC_Yank

Brettness37 said: It's the transfer window. When else would it happen?

We've had a decent first half, but we aren't intimidating or terrorizing anyone. Losses and ties to the league basement dwellers speak volumes louder than last minute wins against the stronger sides. And the brutal blowouts we've had? I for one want them to tinker and rebuild until we are the head of the table and decimating the opposition regularly. When we are pounding the basement dwellers 4-1 or 5-1 and handling the mid table with ease, then I'll start panicking and calling them nuts when they make a change. Until then I'll grimace when we lose players I like, and wait to see the results before losing my shit.

I'm pretty happy with 2012 over 2011, and hope 2013 has the same kind of progression over 2012. We aren't going to see that progression without personnel changes. I still sting from a few of them from 2011, but I can't argue the current team is not better than last year.

Well said. Just because a move appears to be the right one doesn't mean it can't still carry with it pangs of disappointment of losing a player you liked and respected.

I don't see us switching to 4-4-2 to accommodate MIller (or anybody else). If Rennie was going to do that, he'd have done it for LeToux.

shekers

A bit more fuel to the fire. Sounds like Robson kind of confirm the move

http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4431856/Kenny-Miller-news-Barry-Robson-says-star-can-still-play-for-Scotland-despite-MLS-move.html

BianconeroSouthsider

Well if he comes in, I hope (like the rest of us) that Miller starts bagging goals like there is no tomorrow because we desperately need it. He's capable of doing it, it's just a question of expectations and adapting to the league.

Lou_macari_chippy · Post edited by Lou_macari_chippy at 2012-07-15 23:51:29

OldFan said:

Lou_macari_chippy said: If we have lost chiumiento and Le Toux plus cash for Robson and Miller, then we are insane. Doing this in the middle of the season is insane. Our team was a strong cohesive unit, we have been in almost every game we've played and looked like very strong candidates for a play off spot. We are risking it all. Did i mention then word insane yet?

NotAHappyPuppy

You really need to see what happens before reacting so strongly.

This is year 1 of a rebuild; it requires Rennie taking risk and using his balls.

Our offence outside of Mattocks has not been good enough . I am excited that Rennie is having the stones to make these types of moves.

If he was bringing much better players in that would be fine, but these two are not going to add much, and at their ages wont improve over then next couple of seasons either. I hope i'm proved wrong, and well i'll be there at every home game regardless to cheer them on, i just think there was probably a better way of doing this and perhaps one of Robson or Miller probably didnt need to be signed for footballing reasons but may have been for other reasons. We shall see how it pans out but this is a massive risk imo.

Grandstander

TheRenniesance said: Yeah, ciao Hassli at the end of the season. Caps seemed to have moved so many players in order to get someone exciting. That shouldn't be Kenny Miller, IMO.

Whether Miller works out or not, has nothing to do with any potential Hassli departure. Unfortunately is goal scoring has dropped, and he wasn't brought in just to hold up the ball. Hassli is teetering on being our Danny Dichio. Revered amongst fans, but looking at the entire body of work, you wonder why?

prawnsideFC

Grandstander said: Revered amongst fans, but looking at the entire body of work, you wonder why?

Hassli himself was posed this question when he went on team1040. He said, "because I get 3 red cards" :)

dustils

Kenny miller is a talent .I didnt see that much of him this year but i saw him in the playoff games against west ham (COYI) and he was there biggest attacking threat, and i would guess he will be good for 10-15 goals if he stays healthy.He will run the pants off hassli and score more goals

SAFC_Yank

The Sky Sports News scroll claims Miller is already in Vancouver discussing final terms.

Lord_Bob

The downgrade from Le Toux to Miller makes up for the upgrade from Chiumiento to Robson.

Lord Bob would like to put it on the record that he's always predicted this will be a disappointing DP signing.

Torkin

Lord_Bob said: The downgrade from Le Toux to Miller makes up for the upgrade from Chiumiento to Robson.

Lord Bob would like to put it on the record that he's always predicted this will be a disappointing DP signing.

How can you say Miller is a downgrade? He looks to be as good or better than LeToux. Face it, LeToux did not live up to his reputation here so Miller should be an upgrade. Time will tell though.

Lord_Bob

Le Toux is younger, cheaper, and a better all-rounder who's proven it over multiple seasons. He was shit being played on the wing instead of at striker; so is Camilo. Also Le Toux is a known quantity in MLS, while we don't know if Miller can successfully adjust like Henry or fail like Jarju.

danrik

Lord_Bob said: The downgrade from Le Toux to Miller makes up for the upgrade from Chiumiento to Robson.

Lord Bob would like to put it on the record that he's always predicted this will be a disappointing DP signing.

Kenny Miller is faster, more skilled and a better finisher than Le Toux. He is a significant upgrade.

Gamblor

My (albeit uneducated) opinion is that this is a club that needs help scoring goals. Even if the strikers are only partially to blame, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that we need more production out of that position. I also don't think that we can evaluate this signing, until we see Miller play some minutes for the club. Let's wait until we actually see Miller before we decide if he is an upgrade or downgrade over what we had in Seba. I could care less about what we gave up if he produces and we end up in the playoffs.

Gamblor

It's official now http://www.whitecapsfc.com/news/2012/07/vwfc-add-miller

DC_Caps

I think Le Toux is better than Miller.

Let's look back in October and see how many goals Miller scores and how much he got paid ...

Lord_Bob

danrik said:

Lord_Bob said: The downgrade from Le Toux to Miller makes up for the upgrade from Chiumiento to Robson.

Lord Bob would like to put it on the record that he's always predicted this will be a disappointing DP signing.

Kenny Miller is faster, more skilled and a better finisher than Le Toux. He is a significant upgrade.

Wow, you make him sound like an expensive old Darren Mattocks who might be completely unable to adjust to Major League Soccer!

kurtham

Lord_Bob said: Le Toux is younger, cheaper, and a better all-rounder who's proven it over multiple seasons. He was shit being played on the wing instead of at striker; so is Camilo. Also Le Toux is a known quantity in MLS, while we don't know if Miller can successfully adjust like Henry or fail like Jarju.

WOW! The guy hasn't even sign a contract yet and we are already comparing him to Jarju! MIller scored 10 goals for a team that was 2 wins away from the Premier League. He's not coming from some D2 team in Belgium.

SRFC

As a Cardiff fan I seen a good bit of Kenny Miller last season and he was dire. Most Cardiff fans are delighted to be rid of him. Miller is an awful player and its a step backwards getting Le Toux out and Miller in

Lord_Bob

kurtham said:

Lord_Bob said: Le Toux is younger, cheaper, and a better all-rounder who's proven it over multiple seasons. He was shit being played on the wing instead of at striker; so is Camilo. Also Le Toux is a known quantity in MLS, while we don't know if Miller can successfully adjust like Henry or fail like Jarju.

WOW! The guy hasn't even sign a contract yet and we are already comparing him to Jarju! MIller scored 10 goals for a team that was 2 wins away from the Premier League. He's not coming from some D2 team in Belgium.

Fun fact: Miller scored 2 goals in his last 22 Cardiff City games. The Championship isn't so much better than MLS that he's going to turn that into DP form, not at age 32 and getting used to a new league. His production in Turkey (which is a very slightly rich man's MLS except they're not rich so they don't pay their players) was, speaking charitably, "fair".

brrrrrradley · Post edited by brrrrrradley at 2012-07-16 09:32:30

If the argument is going to be is Miller better than Le Toux, I don't think it will be a contest. Miller will be better hands down. If the argument is is Miller the player we need, it's open for debate.

Rennie wants to play a 4-3-3 and he seems to rate Mattocks currently as the top dog of our strikers. Richards helps our lack of wingers a great deal and to me Robson works much better in the middle than on the wing as a midfielder. Does Miller force Mattocks to the left or can he play it himself because that seems to be where we are lacking.

He did take the cursed number seven so he is not off to a good start.......

ynwasouthside

21 in 18 for Rangers prior to move to Turkey.

puntocero

I suggest people lose 'jarju' from their vocabulary.

bili

Miller is an upgrade in talent over Le Toux. Let's not kid ourselves.

Robson is an upgrade in talent over Chumiento. Let's not kid ourselves.

Lord_Bob

I just can't imagine why we'd be excited about this. A guy whose only skill is scoring and whose scoring was poor enough that he washed out of two not-much-better-than-MLS leagues as a Designated Player at 32 years old, when forwards (particularly athletics-first forwards who rely on their speed) almost invariably start to go downhill? What? What?

Montana

Miller is better than Le Toux in virtually every facet of the game.....something that will be quite apparent in about two weeks time once everyone has had the chance to watch Kenny a few times.

bili

Are we sure he's a DP?

Didn't we get a bunch of allocation during our moves that could be used to pay Miller enough but not DP money? Obviously, I have no clue how allocation money works so I could very likely be wrong.

AJAX79

bili said: Are we sure he's a DP?

Didn't we get a bunch of allocation during our moves that could be used to pay Miller enough but not DP money? Obviously, I have no clue how allocation money works so I could very likely be wrong.

DP Status is listed on the Caps website.

kurtham

@Lord_Bob - In his defense, nobody was scoring for Cardiff in the second half of the season. Lots of players play poorly in Turkey, Canada should be an easier move, especially as the worst of our travel schedule is behind us.

mandrew

bili said: Are we sure he's a DP?

The website say so yes.

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/news/2012/07/vwfc-add-miller

bili

My bad - didn't realize this was all official official.

ynwasouthside

Lord_Bob said: I just can't imagine why we'd be excited about this. A guy whose only skill is scoring and whose scoring was poor enough that he washed out of two not-much-better-than-MLS leagues as a Designated Player at 32 years old, when forwards (particularly athletics-first forwards who rely on their speed) almost invariably start to go downhill? What? What?

Kovermaans has 17 goals in 26 MLS matches, many of which with a beer belly. He's a year older than Miller. Don't know the stats on Robbie Keane, but he's in a similar boat, maybe a year younger.

SAFC_Yank

bili said: Miller is an upgrade in talent over Le Toux. Let's not kid ourselves.

Robson is an upgrade in talent over Chumiento. Let's not kid ourselves.

There's talent, and there's productivity. I'd rather have the second.

I'll withhold judgement on the first pairing. On the second, Chiumiento is vastly more "talented" than Robson, he did things on the ball Barry couldn't dream of doing. It's plausible, though I'm not yet convinced, that Robson can be more productive.

Also worth noting - Chiumiento & LeToux were both younger, and at least for this season, cheaper.

tim13

bili said: Miller is an upgrade in talent over Le Toux. Let's not kid ourselves.

Robson is an upgrade in talent over Chumiento. Let's not kid ourselves.

We'll see and you must be kidding. Robson is not an upgrade over Dede. Not so far, and not even close. We'll see.

Now that it is official lets see what makes the most sense formation wise. Rennie likes the 4-5-1 defensively and the 4-3-3 offensively so use Robson and Miller as wings?

Robson - Mattocks - Miller

--------Camillo

------JMD-----Gersh

With either Rochat or YP Lee joining the attack with Gersh or JMD.

On defense it collapses back to our 4-5-1 with Mattocks alone up top and Robson-JMD-Camillo-Gersh-Miller as the mid 5.

Lord_Bob

kurtham said: @Lord_Bob - In his defense, nobody was scoring for Cardiff in the second half of the season. Lots of players play poorly in Turkey, Canada should be an easier move, especially as the worst of our travel schedule is behind us.

Lots of players play poorly in North America move. It's an easier move for a Scottish person culturally but possibly even more difficult in terms of soccer: wild and varied surfaces, nasty travel, idiosyncratic refereeing, highly untalented defenders who get stuck in.

ynwasouthside said: Kovermaans has 17 goals in 26 MLS matches, many of which with a beer belly. He's a year older than Miller. Don't know the stats on Robbie Keane, but he's in a similar boat, maybe a year younger.

Koevermans is a big fat prick who can muscle through guys and lash the ball home. Those guys can play until they're 40 if they don't drown in a puddle of their own sick first. He doesn't have to spent ninety minutes standing on a defender's shoulders, running like a motherfucker, chasing down balls, and burning energy at speed to do that.

OldFan · Post edited by OldFan at 2012-07-16 09:47:54

Barry Robson has played 3 games. Miller hasn't even been on the pitch yet.

Already we have people invoking the name of Jarju or being critical of these guys. Yet we have Hassli having a poor season (goal wise) , and he is not getting the same level of criticism.

I think we all need to take a breath and evaluate these two players around the end of August and a good set of games behind them.

bili

SAFC_Yank said:

bili said: Miller is an upgrade in talent over Le Toux. Let's not kid ourselves.

Robson is an upgrade in talent over Chumiento. Let's not kid ourselves.

There's talent, and there's productivity. I'd rather have the second.

I'll withhold judgement on the first pairing. On the second, Chiumiento is vastly more "talented" than Robson, he did things on the ball Barry couldn't dream of doing. It's plausible, though I'm not yet convinced, that Robson can be more productive.

Also worth noting - Chiumiento & LeToux were both younger, and at least for this season, cheaper.

Watching Robson vs. Chumiento and I disagree. I think Robson plays at a much fast pace than Chumiento so his subtle touches are much more difficult than meets the eye. I found Chumiento played very plodding.

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