Are we a better team?

JP82

Ok now that all of the wheeling and dealing is done since all the changes are we a better team now? Or still the same but better suited under Rennie style as when we had Hassli, Seba, DC, Floyd Franks, Boxall n LT

Chris

We're more balanced now, I think, not necessarily better.

ClaytonA

Too early to tell. 5-10 games into next year. We need to be patient.

TFA

We now have more potential.

danimal · Post edited by danimal at 2012-08-07 23:07:33

Against LA and SJ, definitely better. Will get another chance to gauge vs Dallas. Then the Cascadian derbies will be a good chance for comparison. Hard to tell vs RSL since the outgoing players didn't match up with them this season.

saltybugR

absolutely much better than 1 month ago-- at least a 25% upgrade-- more speed, euro-international experience, quality depth in all positions except goal and more leadership; rennie, his coaching assistants and the FO have done a super job of upgrading the team which has the potential to do damage for the remainder of the season; now its up to the players to bring it to the game

barca99

Great thread!

Different team for sure. As someone said probably what Rennie likes more. More speed, experience, and truculance as Brian Burke would say, but I think less ball skills. Maybe more suited to the MLS game? Hopefully it brings success and I like that it's more likely to see Teibert eventually get some time (in place of Richards or Camilo maybe?)

fourfourtwo

barca99 said: Great thread!

Different team for sure. As someone said probably what Rennie likes more. More speed, experience, and truculance as Brian Burke would say, but I think less ball skills. Maybe more suited to the MLS game? Hopefully it brings success and I like that it's more likely to see Teibert eventually get some time (in place of Richards or Camilo maybe?)

Can you give me one example of Martin Rennie not liking Ball skill outside of Davide choosing to sign in Zurich? I didn't think so.

Rennie has been quick to get rid of the least technical players in like Salinas, Khalfan, Vagenas, Tan, Le Toux etc, Franks. We are way more comfortable on the ball than we have ever been in MLS.

barca99

Mattocks and Richards touch leaves a lot to be desired IMO. Very fast, but less skilled than Davide, LeToux and Hassli to me. They will get better with time, but seems like more long balls over the top looking to spring strikers than playing through the middle of the park.

Just what I see.

fourfourtwo

barca99 said: Mattocks and Richards touch leaves a lot to be desired IMO. Very fast, but less skilled than Davide, LeToux and Hassli to me. They will get better with time, but seems like more long balls over the top looking to spring strikers than playing through the middle of the park.

Just what I see.

I don't think you would find anyone who would suggest LeToux had any ball skill and Hassli could have been the most technical player on the park but didn't play that way ever. I think Richards has been the best right winger we have had in MLS.

barca99

Fair enough, just a difference in opinion. I think Richards speed makes up for his lack of touch and I think you under-rate LeToux, but that's just my opinion.

Seemed like with Hassli they wanted to use him to hold up the ball and allow the mid's into the attack, more possession oriented I would call it, whereas with Mattocks and Richards it is more long balls looking for breaks.

Markus

Whether we're a better team or not still remains to be seen. It can take some time to gel when the team changes over so quickly.

To me the biggest problem we had previously was service to the strikers and getting into dangerous positions more often. If that improves and we generate more chances, while remaining steady at the back, we'll be an improved team.

JP82

I agree time will tell with this team however on paper IMO it's an upgrade on the squad

BianconeroSouthsider

From what I've seen, we fit more with Rennie's tactics. On paper, we're probably on par with where we were a few months ago now that we have Miller, Robson, O'Brien and Ulisses. We still need to play a few games and wait to see our recent signings in action.

limmeister

The team is definitely better.

limmeister

skill wise, we are better. with the exception of Chiumiento.

FootyMonster

Chris said: We're more balanced now, I think, not necessarily better.

Agree 100%. I would also add that we are much much deeper in all positions than we were before the summer transfer window opened.

Rennie has pretty much placed his final stamp on the squad this season, now its time to "man up" and get to the post season.

Great Thread!

FootyMonster

barca99 said: Fair enough, just a difference in opinion. I think Richards speed makes up for his lack of touch and I think you under-rate LeToux, but that's just my opinion.

Seemed like with Hassli they wanted to use him to hold up the ball and allow the mid's into the attack, more possession oriented I would call it, whereas with Mattocks and Richards it is more long balls looking for breaks.

No, no, I'm pretty sure LeToux never ever put a good cross in with the Caps and his first touch and passing were horrible. Top Class finisher though.

Richards, apart from some over zealous attacking has been nothing short of a nightmare for the opposing full backs he's faced while in a Caps jersey.

Seathanaich

Richards for LeToux gives us an actual winger, so positionally it's an upgrade.

Chiumiento is a big loss. His ability to create was feared and respected around the league. The highlights that someone posted of FC Zurich, where he was clearly MOTM, is the sort of stuff that gets forgotten by his detractors. He was our most improved player this year. Is Robson an improvement? Maybe - he's certainly a very different player, so I'm not sure you can really compare them. But I'd rather have a midfield with Chimiento in it than one without him. I'd rather have lost Thorrington (even though he plays well when healthy) than Chiumiento.

fourfourtwo

Seathanaich said: Richards for LeToux gives us an actual winger, so positionally it's an upgrade.

Chiumiento is a big loss. His ability to create was feared and respected around the league. The highlights that someone posted of FC Zurich, where he was clearly MOTM, is the sort of stuff that gets forgotten by his detractors. He was our most improved player this year. Is Robson an improvement? Maybe - he's certainly a very different player, so I'm not sure you can really compare them. But I'd rather have a midfield with Chimiento in it than one without him. I'd rather have lost Thorrington (even though he plays well when healthy) than Chiumiento.

It would be fun to have Salgado back ( or someone who does LW things) and we could field a proper team for the first time in MLS. It would be nice to have a true number 10 although I do like playing 4-1-4-1 more that the 4-2-3-1.

BianconeroSouthsider

Seathanaich said: Richards for LeToux gives us an actual winger, so positionally it's an upgrade.

Chiumiento is a big loss. His ability to create was feared and respected around the league. The highlights that someone posted of FC Zurich, where he was clearly MOTM, is the sort of stuff that gets forgotten by his detractors. He was our most improved player this year. Is Robson an improvement? Maybe - he's certainly a very different player, so I'm not sure you can really compare them. But I'd rather have a midfield with Chimiento in it than one without him. I'd rather have lost Thorrington (even though he plays well when healthy) than Chiumiento.

I sort of echo this, I loved Chiumiento's play, he was definitely a creative midfielder. Robson is a lot more hard working and a leader, but both players have qualities that the other doesn't have. I'll always miss Davide's presence, no matter what happens to us in the future.

Jay_Duke

I love the idea of Salgado on the left wing, but let's remember he's very young and only had a handful of good performances. Would not surprise me if he comes back from injury and has problems returning to the form we saw at left wing.

Christopher

Jay_Duke said: I love the idea of Salgado on the left wing, but let's remember he's very young and only had a handful of good performances. Would not surprise me if he comes back from injury and has problems returning to the form we saw at left wing.

It would surprise me if any footballer came back from a broken bone (foot, not sure exactly where) and immediately returned to form. Even after he's fit enough to play, it'll take time for him to be fit enough to start, and then fit enough to do well in a starting job. He'll get two of the this year, the third probably not until next year.

Brettness37

If only we had a choice of which player FC Zurich offered a contract to.

I don't think Davide was shopped around and sold, I think he got a better offer, and the Whitecaps got out of the way. I'm not sure we'd see the good DC if we'd said, "Sorry champ, you have a contract here, FC Zurich can hang."

Lefty

I presume the team had a chance to up its commitment to Chiumiento and chose not to do so. I mean they have taken on a large financial commitment to Miller, so it does not appear the team is cheap in terms of payroll. So I guess the team did not put the same valuation on the man as did FCZ.

FootyMonster

Although I'm still not completely over the release or sale (not sure what transpired) of Chiumiento, Robson has filled in very well for DeDe and has produced more so I can't really say the Club made a bad move. But seeing the way Chiumiento has been playing in his first couple games back in Switzerland makes me wonder how much more Chiumiento could have achieved had the Club made a bigger commitment to him.

Thats one of the reasons why I would say the team is not really "technically" better but the squad is stronger as a whole unit and probably better suited to make the post-season and actually have a decent run than it was just a couple months ago.

slamo

They are not better right now. It's sport - there is one stat that measures a teams quality and that's points. Four points in five matches and 3 loses in 7 after 4 loses in 16 says we are not better. We win the next two then we can talk - we are not building for next year unless the club is looking to make a move to VMSL masters - this is about putting a team together that can gel and make a run for the Cup now. If Chivas catch us I'm sure we'll hear calls for Rennies head - if we get to semis or better he'll be hailed a genius. Soccer is a cruel lover. We could have coasted into the playoffs and everyone would have been happy. Rennie has basically proposed in front of the city and is awaiting an answer it will either be a colossal embarrassment or a grand celebration.

cixceven

Lefty said: I presume the team had a chance to up its commitment to Chiumiento and chose not to do so. I mean they have taken on a large financial commitment to Miller, so it does not appear the team is cheap in terms of payroll. So I guess the team did not put the same valuation on the man as did FCZ.

Thing is, with the DP rules, FCZ offering $355,000 as compared to $345,000 is far far more than a $10,000 choice to the MLS team. I suspect this is a loss due to cap rules, not willingness to pay a certain salary.

Brenton

I think it was more to do with the length of contract. Three years in Zurich at that wage is normal. Three years in MLS at that wage is rare and, for a player with a history of inconsistent play, ludicrous.

Seathanaich

fourfourtwo said: It would be fun to have Salgado back ( or someone who does LW things) and we could field a proper team for the first time in MLS. It would be nice to have a true number 10 although I do like playing 4-1-4-1 more that the 4-2-3-1.

No kidding. Two legitimate wingers (because Salgado was playing that well out there) would be something to see. The tactical flexibility it would create . . . the mind boggles.

prawnsideFC · Post edited by prawnsideFC at 2012-08-10 11:02:51

I have a feeling there could be an issue in the future where European clubs will offer $355,000 contracts just to screw us over.

Chris

I would suggest that if an extra $5-10K is enough to make a player want to uproot and go play in a shitty European league, that player probably wasn't sticking around long term anyways. It's all a matter of determining how much is enough money to make the player want to uproot and head over.

cixceven

Chris said: I would suggest that if an extra $5-10K is enough to make a player want to uproot and go play in a shitty European league, that player probably wasn't sticking around long term anyways. It's all a matter of determining how much is enough money to make the player want to uproot and head over.

I would agree if the player was at $345k and was offered $355k. But if a player is at $150k, has an outstanding season, and team offers $355k, that's a different decision for the team then if they had offered $345k. It is a real weakness in the system. I guess it is somewhat countered by the use of mystery allocation money to buy down a player from DP status.

Christopher

prawnsideFC said: I have a feeling there could be an issue in the future where European clubs will offer $355,000 contracts just to screw us over.

One problem with that is in 2009-10, the average yearly salary for a Championship player was £211,068 or around $331,000 with today's exchange rate. That's peanuts to a big club, and well within the means of some random Swedish, Belgian, or Portugese club. For now, we're a feeder league and will not be able to compete. In time, as the salary cap rises, who knows.

FootyMonster

Chris said: I would suggest that if an extra $5-10K is enough to make a player want to uproot and go play in a shitty European league, that player probably wasn't sticking around long term anyways. It's all a matter of determining how much is enough money to make the player want to uproot and head over.

Agree, but it becomes really tricky when the Club has to decide the level of commitment based on the Cap hit. Unfortunately we'll probably see this on the regular until the Cap is increased substantially.

OldFan · Post edited by OldFan at 2012-08-10 12:43:11

Christopher said:

prawnsideFC said: I have a feeling there could be an issue in the future where European clubs will offer $355,000 contracts just to screw us over.

One problem with that is in 2009-10, the average yearly salary for a Championship player was £211,068 or around $331,000 with today's exchange rate. That's peanuts to a big club, and well within the means of some random Swedish, Belgian, or Portugese club. For now, we're a feeder league and will not be able to compete. In time, as the salary cap rises, who knows.

We need to get to a point where MLS can support a salary cap of around 10 million. (still having Dp salaries only counting for a portion). I think at that point we can not be a feeder league and be more of a mid tier league and keep more players around.

prawnsideFC

^ I really hope the MLS are smart about this though and wait until some of these teams start making a profit before increasing the cap

Elisant

OldFan said:

Christopher said:

prawnsideFC said: I have a feeling there could be an issue in the future where European clubs will offer $355,000 contracts just to screw us over.

One problem with that is in 2009-10, the average yearly salary for a Championship player was £211,068 or around $331,000 with today's exchange rate. That's peanuts to a big club, and well within the means of some random Swedish, Belgian, or Portugese club. For now, we're a feeder league and will not be able to compete. In time, as the salary cap rises, who knows.

We need to get to a point where MLS can support a salary cap of around 10 million. (still having Dp salaries only counting for a portion). I think at that point we can not be a feeder league and be more of a mid tier league and keep more players around.

"Agreement between MLS and the MLS Players' Union, the 2010 salary cap will be $2.55 million with an automatic five percent increase each year until the expiration of the agreement at the end of the 2014 season."

So you can see that it's well on its way with the annual 5% increases... Only dear-god-I-don't-want-to-do the-math more years at the current rate until it's somewhat reasonable to compete against other big leagues around the world.

Hopefully in 2014 they revisit this with a more calculated approach considering the growth the league has seen since 2010.

OldFan

prawnsideFC said: ^ I really hope the MLS are smart about this though and wait until some of these teams start making a profit before increasing the cap

I think they will be smart about it. Getting to a 10 million cap for example will take years (like a decade perhaps) if they play it conservative. Not enough MLS clubs could support that kind of cap number at this point.

cixceven

The other way to "grow the cap" quickly, without actually increasing the cap, is simply to add more DP spots. Sure, that kills parity pretty quickly, but unless there is a salary floor, an increasing cap will do the same thing.

OldFan

cixceven said: The other way to "grow the cap" quickly, without actually increasing the cap, is simply to add more DP spots. Sure, that kills parity pretty quickly, but unless there is a salary floor, an increasing cap will do the same thing.

Yes, parity dies because several clubs could not afford to keep pace. I think that would be a bad idea as it might lead to this becoming the "NASL Retirement Home" that we saw in the late 70s early 80s. I would personally be happy to see it held at 3 for a very long time.

Chris

Salary floor plus revenue sharing will eventually be necessary, yes.

Brenton

Here's one take on this:

So far DPs haven't changed the outcomes that much this season, from what I can see. Adding another spot wouldn't give a huge advantage to some teams.

On the flipside, increasing the cap would disadvantage smaller teams, teams that aren't profitable. They maintain a competitive presence because the cap forces teams like New York to field 8 players that are middling MLSers. Henry can't win every game, and defences are pretty similar across the league, depending on coaching/selection/organization rather than out-and-out skill or ability. If the cap goes up but some teams can't keep up to it, then you'll see the New Yorks fielding middle to high-end MLSers and teams like Dallas fielding middle to low-end MLSers, and the skill discrepancy will grow.

Christopher

Elisant said:

OldFan said:

Christopher said:

prawnsideFC said: I have a feeling there could be an issue in the future where European clubs will offer $355,000 contracts just to screw us over.

One problem with that is in 2009-10, the average yearly salary for a Championship player was £211,068 or around $331,000 with today's exchange rate. That's peanuts to a big club, and well within the means of some random Swedish, Belgian, or Portugese club. For now, we're a feeder league and will not be able to compete. In time, as the salary cap rises, who knows.

We need to get to a point where MLS can support a salary cap of around 10 million. (still having Dp salaries only counting for a portion). I think at that point we can not be a feeder league and be more of a mid tier league and keep more players around.

"Agreement between MLS and the MLS Players' Union, the 2010 salary cap will be $2.55 million with an automatic five percent increase each year until the expiration of the agreement at the end of the 2014 season."

So you can see that it's well on its way with the annual 5% increases... Only dear-god-I-don't-want-to-do the-math more years at the current rate until it's somewhat reasonable to compete against other big leagues around the world.

Hopefully in 2014 they revisit this with a more calculated approach considering the growth the league has seen since 2010.

If the 5% increase holds, the cap will pass the $10 million threshold for the 2039 season. :(

Jay_Duke

5% increase is barely higher than inflation. Also, teams have to increase the pay of their base level contracts so its not a huge spike.

The biggest impact for the MLS to increase the cap is if they get major sponsorship dollars and most importantly lucritave TV deals.

Fynnsky

If Bimbo Bread isn't "major" then I don't know what is

Jay_Duke

You laugh, but they're a huge company. Biggest bread/bakery company in the world.

piltdownman

Raising the salary cap without raising the number of international spots only really means that teams will be paying the same US players more money.

Jay_Duke

piltdownman said: Raising the salary cap without raising the number of international spots only really means that teams will be paying the same US players more money.

Huh? They can't pay more for the international players?

piltdownman · Post edited by piltdownman at 2012-08-10 20:55:45

Each team only gets 8 international spots. That leaves them with 12-22 us players per team from the same limited talent pool.

Jay_Duke

I understand that but why wouldn't increasing the salary cap mean we can spend more on our international players?

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