"The only other time it appears to have been made in recent history was in a 2002 Premier League game between the Bolton Wanderers and Newcastle United, according to Sports Illustrated columnist Grant Wahl.
Bolton goalie Jussi Jaaskelainen was penalized for holding the ball too long in that game and the resulting free kick led to a tying goal. Newcastle went on to win 3-2."
Legal_Alien said:
piltdownman said:
Lord_Bob said: ... The laws are also clear that Wambach should have gotten a yellow card for dissent when she counted down McLeod's possession to the referee. One set of rules for us and one set for them; incidentally, how's Hope Solo's performance-enhancing drugs suspension coming along, FIFA?
I find it extremely interesting how polarized the view on Wambach's behaviour is. Canadian's are calling it dissent. American's are calling her the smartest player to have ever played the game. And the rest of the world just think it's poor form. Personally I would put it on the level of players waving an imaginary card. What is crazy is how easily the official Pedersen was influenced by Wambach's counting.
I think sporting behaviour and football have long since parted ways, so I would tend towards thinking Wambach was trying everything to get them back into the game. Fair or otherwise. The referee however has probably officiated in her last major game. FIFA is usually pretty good at not giving officials a second chance once they've balls'd up a major international game.
Benito Archundia. (drops mic, walks away)
Lord_Bob said: For the record, if I were in the ref's position I wouldn't have carded Wambach. I mean, I know that's what the Laws say to do but it wasn't an excessive protest and it's very, very rare in a high-level match to card a player for something like that. So I'd let it go, maybe give Wambach a talking to.
Which of course has no parallels to how anything else in that game should have been handled.
But thats how it should have played out, then the ref would have went up to McLeod and given her a stern warning with the whole hand waving "No more bullshit" symbol and be done with it. Moving on.
Whats being left out because of "the call" is the run of form from all the officiating leading up to that point. The sideline refs were non existant and there were so many missed calls on both sides that this game must be looked at from a disciplinary POV by FIFA.
I have never experienced that watching a Canadian team play soccer, its even worse than the 2007 Gold Cup semi vs. US for the men.
Double edged sword speaking out against officiating, CSA will not do it (thats been proven in the past) so the players themselves must. With that comes the risk of getting suspended or fined, its all there in black and white. FIFA rules.
Posted this response on another site: The best way to keep everyone else quiet is to silence the dissidents publicly and quickly… Dictatorship 101.
bili said:
piltdownman said:
Lord_Bob said: ... The laws are also clear that Wambach should have gotten a yellow card for dissent when she counted down McLeod's possession to the referee. One set of rules for us and one set for them; incidentally, how's Hope Solo's performance-enhancing drugs suspension coming along, FIFA?
I find it extremely interesting how polarized the view on Wambach's behaviour is. Canadian's are calling it dissent. American's are calling her the smartest player to have ever played the game. And the rest of the world just think it's poor form. Personally I would put it on the level of players waving an imaginary card. What is crazy is how easily the official Pedersen was influenced by Wambach's counting.
And I think this all comes back how naive the women's game still is. Even though it has still grown so much in the past 10 years, there is so much further to go:
- our goalie should have been aware of the fact that the ref would look for anything to give to the Americans and never held the ball that long;
- IOC/FIFA insist on having incompetent refs on the field that are the right gender rather than competent refs that are the wrong gender;
- The referee applying the law so black/white at such an important moment of the game nor should she have been as influenced by the decision;
- The Canadian coach should never never let the girls have said what they said - the disappointment should have been left on the field and the girls should have been as composed as possible when speaking to the media. If anything - send someone out there to speak on behalf of the team.
There is a lot to learn on all sides.
Bili, WTF man, nemoj pricati gluposti!! This sounds rational! :0 :p
Here are the comments that FIFA is supposedly looking into.
Obviously, we're disappointed and upset. We felt that the referee took it away from us, so, yes, we are disappointed. We feel like we didn't lose, we feel like it was taken from us. It's a shame in a game like that, which is so important, that the ref decided the result before the game started.
It’s a shame that in such an important and even game that the ref had such an impact on it. We feel cheated. It’s a shame that in a game as important as that, the ref decided the result before it started.
When she gave the penalty, she giggled and said nothing, Classy!
Maybe the referee will wear a Canadian jersey for [the bronze medal game].
We feel like we got robbed in this game. The referee was very one-sided. I have never known this to happen before in a game, referees never make this kind of decision.
She could have done a better job. A way better job. This is the semi-finals. We’re supposed to be professionals and they should act like one, too. I feel robbed. That’s all I can say. I said to her: ‘I hope you can sleep tonight and put on your American jersey because that’s who you played for today.’
Incidentally, the FIFA disciplinary issue is now the top story on both the CBC and Globe and Mail web sites.
How do people feel about our players not being there for the bronze medal game, but as a result of the things they said something concrete happens wrt to incompetent officiating or (hypothetically) match fixing?
Haha the prime minister was just on sportsnet commenting on the game!
Why would there be an investigation into 'incompetent officiating or (hypothetically) match fixing'? Those that would be investigating would be those that, outside of the USWNT, gained the most. FIFA and the ICO got the dream final they wanted.
TSN have announced ratings for Monday's #canWNT v USA match. Average audience: 3.84 million. Total reach in Canada: 10.7 million.
Amazing is 6.2 Million Canadians Watch Usain Bolt Win Gold: Day 9 at London 2012 is Most-Watched Yet.
I think these comments are worth the risk of a suspension. I know people will call it unprofessional but these women had their emotions dripping on the field. They had nothing left, no filter, and if FIFA wants to suspend them for it I am at peace with that. I for one, feel blessed to see them saying things so openly and raw like that. I wish we had more of that in sports. Disgraceful officiating needs to be called out and not put under the carpet by FIFA bully tactics with threats of suspensions and fines. Sometimes the fine or suspension is worth it to draw attention to such a big problem.
I don't care too much if they win the bronze game simply because I think we are the Gold Medalists of this tournament and no record book can change that in my mind.
OldFan said: I think these comments are worth the risk of a suspension. I know people will call it unprofessional but these women had their emotions dripping on the field. They had nothing left, no filter, and if FIFA wants to suspend them for it I am at peace with that. I for one, feel blessed to see them saying things so openly and raw like that. I wish we had more of that in sports. Disgraceful officiating needs to be called out and not put under the carpet by FIFA bully tactics with threats of suspensions and fines. Sometimes the fine or suspension is worth it to draw attention to such a big problem.
I don't care too much if they win the bronze game simply because I think we are the Gold Medalists of this tournament and no record book can change that in my mind.
Yep, they won the gold medal in my mind.
The Canadian women aren't exactly paid like professionals and now may face fines from FIFA.
Should they be fine, would we be able to set up something to donate to the fined players?
I too have no problem with what any of these women said, nor with what the usually vapid Michael Landsberg said - all of them were just being honest, and stating that there is an enormous elephant in the room, and that the Emperor Has No Clothes.
Other than amongst fans of the USA, the entire world is pretty clear that this decision was either dishonest or completely incompetent, and it doesn't hurt to say it. It's not a matter of interpretation or bias, it's a fact that every knowledgable fan and referee knows - this referee blew it.
Despite the great tv audience yesterday, the Women's WC is not exactly a tourney poeple want to host. I'd guess the CSA's & Herdman's "no comment" is sufficient enough to get the players out of fines or any other further action. FIFA doesn't want to fuck us over; they need us to host 2015 and having the women coming in off a bronze medal with a hot US rivalry will be good for business. No need to fuck that up.
Would they fine the players or the CSA? I imagine it would be the CSA...
OldFan said:
I don't care too much if they win the bronze game simply because I think we are the Gold Medalists of this tournament and no record book can change that in my mind.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're the rightful gold medalists. That would be dismissing the accomplishments of Japan, the team that Canada should be playing in the finals. After all, they are the current world champions and defeated our girls in the group stage. A Canadian victory in the finals was by no means guaranteed.
For Saturday's game vs real all fans should wear black arm bands, wave white towels in surrender and count out loud how long the keeper has held on to the ball!!!
spinrack said:
OldFan said:
I don't care too much if they win the bronze game simply because I think we are the Gold Medalists of this tournament and no record book can change that in my mind.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're the rightful gold medalists. That would be dismissing the accomplishments of Japan, the team that Canada should be playing in the finals. After all, they are the current world champions and defeated our girls in the group stage. A Canadian victory in the finals was by no means guaranteed.
Not to mention that there was a very real chance the US scored a tying goal even without the refereed decision. After all, they had scored two in the previous 15 minutes so recent history suggests there were more goals to come in this game.
Either way though - I'm very proud of the girls.
I don't know about you guys... but in a weird way, after this loss, I officially have an emotional connection with the women's team now. Had they won, I would have been happy but I doubt I'd be this connected to them. Sometimes a loss brings everyone closer together. Let's just hope this is the act in the script that leads up to the fairy tale ending of the girls winning the WC on home soil. It would almost be worth it then!
Hopefully the "CSA source"is correct and no sanctions will be levied against our women.
Jay_Duke said: The Canadian women aren't exactly paid like professionals and now may face fines from FIFA.
Should they be fine, would we be able to set up something to donate to the fined players?
There is already talk of it being crowd funded.
piltdownman said: Why would there be an investigation into 'incompetent officiating or (hypothetically) match fixing'? Those that would be investigating would be those that, outside of the USWNT, gained the most. FIFA and the ICO got the dream final they wanted.
That was my point.
bili said: I don't know about you guys... but in a weird way, after this loss, I officially have an emotional connection with the women's team now. Had they won, I would have been happy but I doubt I'd be this connected to them.
Strength through adversity ... if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger. Couldn't agree more. We Canadians love a good "us vs. them" story.
CBC: Canada-U.S. soccer ref defended by father
http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/story/2012/08/07/olympics-us-canada-soccer-ref.html?cmp=rss
CBC said: In broken English, he explained that his daughter warned Canadian goalkeeper Erin McLeod twice for holding the ball beyond the allowable six seconds before whistling her for it.
CBC said: When she isn't refereeing, Pedersen works as a daycare and substitute teacher. She told her dad she would make the same calls again.
The plot thickens.
Not really. "Dad defends daughter" does not, in fact, count as a story.
I read the rule for how long a goalie can hold the ball two ways.
First is the time wasting portion. If she is holding the ball for 15 seconds and wasting time I would suggest adding the time on at the end of the match. The goalie does not gain a competitive advantage.
Second is the tactical. If Canada, for example, gets into a certain formation awaiting the girl's punt or has to "push out" while the ball is in her hands and this leads to her waiting 15 seconds while Canada gets organized, then I suggest Canada is gaining a tactical advantage and the play should be whistled.
I doubt that the second example was the case here therefore the referee could have easily tacked on 10 seconds for every punt the goalie made that was deemed time wasting and there would have been "no harm no foul".
Here is Abby Wambach's explanation of her role in the situation:
[Wambach] told reporters in Manchester on Tuesday that she began running near Pederson and counting off the seconds as McLeod held the ball.
“I wasn’t yelling, I was just counting,” she said. “I probably did it five to seven times. I got to 10 seconds right next to the referee, and at 10 seconds she blew the whistle.” Wambach said that McLeod held on to the ball for at least 15 seconds on a couple of occasions in the first half when she was counting.
“Yes it’s uncharacteristic,” Wambach said of the call. “But the rules are the rules. You can say it’s gamesmanship, you can say it’s smart, but I’m a competitor. We needed to get a goal. They’re trying to waste time; I’m trying to speed it up.
“I think making the referee aware of a situation, there is nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, the ref made the decision on her own.”
McLeod admitted that she was warned at half-time about taking too long to put the ball in play, but took it as a run of the mill admonition.
piltdownman said: CBC: Canada-U.S. soccer ref defended by father
http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/story/2012/08/07/olympics-us-canada-soccer-ref.html?cmp=rss
CBC said: In broken English, he explained that his daughter warned Canadian goalkeeper Erin McLeod twice for holding the ball beyond the allowable six seconds before whistling her for it.
CBC said: When she isn't refereeing, Pedersen works as a daycare and substitute teacher. She told her dad she would make the same calls again.
The plot thickens.
Well, at least it proves she has a father.
I hope football/soccer doesn't head down the same path as boxing did way back when...
The officials at the olympics were horrible, not only in the women's Canada/US game, but also in the men's Honduras/Brazil game. As a neutral watching the brazil/honduras game it was absolute BS that the ref basically handed the game to Brazil for no apparent reason. the double yellow card in less than a minute, penalty shoot, and a second double yellow in a game where there was very little physical contact is beyond stupidity & corruption.
Obviously there is considerations being made to the financial implications of not having certain teams play in certain games. Or this was the worse case of a goalie holding onto a ball in 10 years. One of the two has to be true, and I don't believe its the latter.
Bite your tongue Martin Rennie!
Blueprint said: Bite your tongue Martin Rennie!
yeah, a little pissed at Rennie. The rule isn't the point. The point is it hasn't been used/called in years and years. Ask anybody who watches regular soccer for the last 10 years and I doubt you would find anyone who has seen this called more than once, and most people couldn't recall even one incident.
Penalizing a player for something that IS NEVER CALLED; is unacceptable. How can Erin take the ref warning seriously when she knows that his is never, ever, ever called in her entire national team career?
And really, indirect fee kicks INSIDE the 18 are a recipe for a hand ball penalty kick. All the kicking player has to do is aim it at the sea of bodies and they have a very high chance of getting a hand ball from the ball bouncing around like a pinball.
The ref can fall back on "it is the rule". That is a cop out. A rule is useless if it is not enforced and no player can be expected to abide by a rule that is not called in 10 years. That is why it is outrageous.
Think of our speeding laws. They are never enforced to the exact speed limit; in practice you get about 10km before they will pull you over. So, if the cops one day suddenly busted you for doing 51 in a 50, I would bet money that you could get it tossed out in court because it is an impractical use of the rules. People can not be expected to adhere to something that is never, ever enforced.
I heard the interview a while ago but didn't want to post as I knew it would just be a lot of negativity directed his way. I think his response is well thought out and rational, and I don't hold his opinion against him.
My personal view is that it shouldn't have been called. Enough said.
Here is something that I didn't think of until later this afternoon. If the referee really wanted to punish McLeod for being late, why wait until the 80th minute and do it on this play which is punishable by an indirect free kicks and is all but guaranteed to change the outcome of the match. Why not call it on a goal kick, and punish her will a yellow? As I have read today while with this play it she held it for 9-10 seconds, there was others where she held it for up to 17 seconds. These would be better times, no? Also after this call why wasn't Solo called the next time she exceeded the six seconds?
Call me crazy but I still believe the official was either grossly incompetent or there was a bais.
^ ^ ^
The argument in some quarters is that Abby Wambach's vocal countdown may have had something to do with the referee choosing to call the play at that particular time.
She called it because it was timewasting and Canada were leading.
If it was level, as was the case with Solo, she wouldn't be seen to be timewasting in the same way because her team weren't leading.
If she was warned twice, and who knows, maybe she was told next time I'll call it, then what did McLeod expect?
This wasn't the sole reason Canada lost. Terrible defending and goalkeeping also played a part in it.
You should never, ever lose a goal at your near post from a corner like that.
McLeod is lucky that this incident is glossing over her mistakes.
spinrack said: ^ ^ ^
The argument in some quarters is that Abby Wambach's vocal countdown may have had something to do with the referee choosing to call the play at that particular time.
Well that's a good, experienced head coming in to play.
Canada need to do things like this and stop playing so nice.
The physical nature of their game yesterday was a start. They need to toughen up in all aspects.
GoF said: Canada need to do things like this and stop playing so nice.
The physical nature of their game yesterday was a start. They need to toughen up in all aspects.
GoF, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you think the Canadian women's team's problem is that they "play nice" you haven't watched many of their games for a few years.
ShahryarAhkami said: I hope football/soccer doesn't head down the same path as boxing did way back when...
The officials at the olympics were horrible, not only in the women's Canada/US game, but also in the men's Honduras/Brazil game. As a neutral watching the brazil/honduras game it was absolute BS that the ref basically handed the game to Brazil for no apparent reason. the double yellow card in less than a minute, penalty shoot, and a second double yellow in a game where there was very little physical contact is beyond stupidity & corruption.
Obviously there is considerations being made to the financial implications of not having certain teams play in certain games. Or this was the worse case of a goalie holding onto a ball in 10 years. One of the two has to be true, and I don't believe its the latter.
I agree.
There were several questionable officiating at this Olympics, not just for soccer tournaments but for other sports as well. There was this Korean fencer who lost her semi-final game because of screw up with the clock. It also happened to other sports, too.
During men's semi-final game between Brazil and Korea earlier today, there were couple questionable non-call that went against Korea. They were very unlucky not to be awarded a penalty kick when a Korean player got tripped by a Brazilian player in the box. (Not saying that's the only reason Korea lost... Just saying it could've turned out to be a different game.)
Lord_Bob said:
GoF said: Canada need to do things like this and stop playing so nice.
The physical nature of their game yesterday was a start. They need to toughen up in all aspects.
GoF, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you think the Canadian women's team's problem is that they "play nice" you haven't watched many of their games for a few years.
That was a pretty nice stomp on the head Tank laid out. :-D
While we're all thinking about the Canadian ladies, the U-20 team under (former Montreal Impact goalkeeper) Andrew Olivieri just named their squad for the U-20 World Cup in Japan this month. Three Whitecaps made it: forward Jenna Richardson and midfielders Nicole Setterlund and Jaclyn Sawicki.
Canada kicks off August 20 against Argentina.
http://www.canadasoccer.com/canada-w20-announces-japan-2012-roster-p151553
GoF said: She called it because it was timewasting and Canada were leading.
If it was level, as was the case with Solo, she wouldn't be seen to be timewasting in the same way because her team weren't leading.
If she was warned twice, and who knows, maybe she was told next time I'll call it, then what did McLeod expect?
This wasn't the sole reason Canada lost. Terrible defending and goalkeeping also played a part in it.
You should never, ever lose a goal at your near post from a corner like that.
McLeod is lucky that this incident is glossing over her mistakes.
I always get nervous with McLeod in net; I don't think she is near the athlete that LeBlanc is. I do find her to be shaky far too often.
I also think that at some point, probably when the tournament is over people have to look at the program critically and areas that need improvement to get them continually in the top 5 of the world. As you said this is glossing over the mistakes of the whole team right now. Giving up 3 leads, ball skills, poor turnovers, suspect goalkeeping, marking schemes on opponents corner kicks. Many areas to me that need to be looked at.
The howler of a goal that snuck by for no near post coverage is not really an issue though either, as the girls did go on to take 2 more leads and erase that mistake.
No one could honestly say once Canada was up 1-0 there would not be a mistake the rest of the match. It was shoddy, but not the reason they lost. McLeod is always an adventure (especially when not being assertive for clearing) but it was not the reason for the result. I noted way back a couple pages I felt defending was suspect, especially on the final goal in added ET, but now that I watch the match again - it was simply a forward winning that battle.
Fact is, even though both teams were scoring, looking at it again, the US was not mustering clear cut chances to score after knotting it at 2 (although they were the aggressor, it was all lily-ball hopeful after Sinclair notched the third).
At least that is what I see on ebb and flow after the score was up 3-2. It looked shaky, but almost bend not break mode. The official makes two debatable calls which lead to the equalizer and that simply is what really decided the match.
40mins of soccer later added to rebound of course - but to be honest the fact the Canadian squad was able to hang on for 40mins after having given up the equalizer under such dubious circumstances... that itself was a mental and fortitude victory. I would bet although it may have been tight, had the drama not unfolded in the 80th minute to cause the equalizer we are still talking about a Canada/Japan gold medal match today.
Also agree - this did not take the gold either, Japan seems to find ways to win, even with this stay of execution for the US squad... I still feel like Japan may beat that team - and perhaps this time finally earn the #1 ranking (still cannot believe as world champions they never were given better than #2).
Fifa got the rematch they want in the showcase match. The ref in question now is being told to have a seat (not working any remaining matches in the tourney for what it is worth), so hoping the girls can pick up the pieces and beat France to medal... which I believe was a stretch goal from teh outset anyhow?!
I found a clear, concise and unbiased opinion of the game, and from NBC of all places.
Canada will bring their full squad to the bronze medal game tomorrow.
A FIFA spokesman said Wednesday that “further investigation will be needed” by the organization’s disciplinary committee, and that no decision will be made before the bronze-medal match against France on Thursday.
This is the fair course of action. The players can't say what they did. But by putting off until after the bronze medal match it ensures that they can play in that match before they are suspended.
Addict said: I found a clear, concise and unbiased opinion of the game, and from NBC of all places.
shock resource for sure - but a very well articulated and logical blog. Glad to see the girls will not face punishment until after the Bronze medal game. Regardless of the result, if suspensions took place before that game it is very likely the media and fans would have the issue really blow up.
piltdownman said: This is the fair course of action. The players can't say what they did. But by putting off until after the bronze medal match it ensures that they can play in that match before they are suspended.
I agree, but was unsure that FIFA would actually get this one right, and not punish their efforts leading up to this game.
Expect a suspension for the players/coach who made post-game comments as it would set an ugly precedent if FIFA were to ignore them.
If the players weren't punished until after the game, would it not then be likely to be the next competitive matches they would miss?
Are there any before the 2015 WC?
OldFan said:
GoF said:
McLeod is lucky that this incident is glossing over her mistakes.
I always get nervous with McLeod in net; I don't think she is near the athlete that LeBlanc is. I do find her to be shaky far too often.
I was wondering the same during the game, I had always though that Leblanc was a clear choice number 1. McLeod always has been shaky when she watch and seems to have poor distribution. I was surprised to hear on WCD that Dolan rates them equally.
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