I think I saw some quite sensationalist footage of some brown-skinned fans being beaten at a game. I guess as long as they don't die, they weren't in danger, yay!

I think (and hope) that at the host cities for the Euro 2012 it will be relatively safe. They will most likely inundate said cities with police to make it as safe as possible. It's standard procedure for this type of event.

Outside those cities, however and specially in the Ukraine, I would not venture too far.

An opinion is hard to form without having been there to get a real sense on what the population is like.

If I ask my girlfriend (she's Russian/Ukrainian) she refuses to take me to either Russia or the Ukraine. Though she seems fine with Poland.

If I ask my Russian buddy, he says it should be fine in the major cities. But then he's a walking building of a guy and I'm a 5'6 slender hispanic who bruises easily.

Everything with a pinch of salt. Racism is everywhere and it's a very strange/interesting animal.

Having said all this, anybody who is a minority in the country they've chosen to visit should always be quite careful. If you're not targeted because of your skin colour, it will be for some other reason.

I think Bili gets a bit of a tough time around here. Everybody has said something you disagree with at some point. You can't hang them on it over and over again. If this is a discussion forum, each comment/thread should be judged on its own merits within reason. No matter what the guys says he seems to get a minus 5. :)

Although I don't know much about the Ukraine, I suspect the police there have been instructed to be as "helpful" as possible to foreigners during Euro, and probably by any means necessary.

Regarding Poland, I've travelled a fair bit there in the early 90s when right wing football violence was in its hayday and my impressions are that this is restricted to an extreme minority of the population -which would also exist in Vancouver and other cities in Canada. Cities like Krakow and Wroclaw are centres of religion and culture with reminders all around them of literally the worst examples of racism in history. People are aware of this for sure, and the last thing anyone in Poland wants is for Euro 2012 to connect them to "Eastern" Europe and the negative connotations that go with that. I suspect security will be at an all-time high for all supporters.

No, finally someone agrees with you.

I understand your point about the "all visible minorities will die" aspect being overblown and even agree with you to a point. But subjects like racism tend to have a black and white aspect to them. Even a little cannot be tolerated.

It would be nice if that was kept on the down low, or better yet, it didn't come up at all. I assume that a lot of the Polish citizens, like in Italy, are starting to come down hard on issues like these. Hopefully the added security will help.

Saw it last night. Disgusting! The games they showed in Poland were all derby matches between bitter rivals that have been at war for many years so I don't think they are representative of what will go on. For one thing most of them will not gain entry to matches (police are on lookout for them and by pure probability of getting tickets). They'd have to organize in groups outside of stadiums and in fan zones and I think police would be quick to react.

Btw some of the chants are (admittedly more shocking/disgusting) used in similar fashion as when Southsiders sing "Build a bonfire". Don't think any Southsiders actually want to burn opposing fans/teams.

Assuming you are not a visible minority (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think you're in a position to say whether or not they should be afraid. If Sol Campbell tells me that he wouldn't allow his family to go into that situation, I'm not going to say that he is, as you say, stupid. His fears are real whether you, or I or anyone else feels they are justified.

Bili - You numbskull. You realise that when you follow your team away around europe, whether you are white, black, or fuckin orange, you putting yourself in a position where you know you could get a smack or two? NOW, when you are a minority of black or asian decent, and you go to a country like the Ukraine to support your team, thats a double whammy. It isn't safe for you to go to these places, you have to stay in well populated, well lit areas at all times and hope you dont run into the wrong people. I don't know how you cant understand that?

See, what bili is doing here is classic trolling. He uses straw man arguments to try and discredit other points and at the same time draw attention to himself. He may or may not actually believe the rubbish he's spouting, but that's not why he's posting. He's drawing attention to himself which is what he wants.

He will now counter my post with some sort of personal attack. Sad, because there's a good debate here.

Funny - I think an african american walking down the wrong block late at night at the Euro is a straw man argument.

You guys are saying it's dangerous there for minorities. I'm saying it's not.

You can't change your side of the story saying it's dangerous if they walk down the wrong block late at night.

If it makes you feel better - yes, minorities probably should not venture into the slums of Warsaw if visiting the Euro. Come to think of it - neither should Caucasians.

bili said: Funny - I think an african american walking down the wrong block late at night at the Euro is a straw man argument.

You guys are saying it's dangerous there for minorities. I'm saying it's not.

You can't change your side of the story saying it's dangerous if they walk down the wrong block late at night.

If it makes you feel better - yes, minorities probably should not venture into the slums of Warsaw if visiting the Euro. Come to think of it - neither should Caucasians.

I am curious how you can believe that a minority walking late at night is not at risk. Have you tried this yourself? Have you been there outside of tourist areas? Have you walked into a pub full of white people and seen how they look and make a minority fear for his safety? I would like to hear the personal experience that leads you to these conclusions.

And racism is not only about violence. You seem to think everything is ok if there are not reports of physical harm. A person can feel at risk (and be scared) when a crowd of people look at him the wrong way, talk about him, throw out a comment or two. Just because someone doesn't get beat up, doesn't mean they are necessarily safe.

ynwasouthside said: But you're attacking him personally?

I'm observing. I haven't said he's "stupid" because of it unlike bili's assertion that someone fearing for their life is "stupid". If you can show me where I've attacked him I'll retract my statement.

bili said: To have Sol Campbell say people may come home in a coffin is just plain fucking stupid. I'm sure the Euro's will be more enjoyable without his negativity.

I'm with you on this one believe it or not. If we're simply talking about the video I agree that the argument put forth is extremely one sided. I asked Proggie (who is Polish) about the video on Facebook. Understandably he's not happy with it, and his wife is downright angry ... also understandable. The impression the video gives is that the racist groups are running rampant. From what Proggie and his wife tell me, this just isn't the case. Yes, these groups exist, but they aren't representative of the norm.

HOWEVER ...

I disagree quite strongly with Bili's assertion that these visible minorities shouldn't worry. He even went so far as to say their fears were stupid. Whether or not any of us think they shouldn't worry, the fact is they are. And unless you are a visible minority who has happily attended football matches in the Ukraine or Poland you have no base for any argument that they shouldn't be afraid ... Boogey-Man argument or not.

bili said: How is that different than a olympic tourist walking down Main and Hastings late at night?

Or a Blackhawks fan crossing 8 mile in Detroit?

Or a visiting Chelsea fan stumbling through Tottenham during the riots this past summer?

or a white truck driver in LA during their riots?

The most obvious difference is that your examples aren't being directed to where the violence potentially could occur. The concern is potential violence in the stadium and at pubs around the stadium, and tourists are going to the Ukraine specifically to go to those stadiums and pubs.

A tourist here for the Olympics isn't flying here with the express intent of going to Main and Hastings (which, for the record, isn't really dangerous, even late at night).

EDIT: though the second two are inadvertent visits to ultra-violent events. New warning from the authorities:

IF YOU ARE WHITE AND FLYING TO LA FOR THE SUPERBOWL, DON'T DRIVE A TRUCK INTO A RACE RIOT

Bad_Gones said:

I disagree quite strongly with Bili's assertion that these visible minorities shouldn't worry. He even went so far as to say their fears were stupid. Whether or not any of us think they shouldn't worry, the fact is they are. And unless you are a visible minority who has happily attended football matches in the Ukraine or Poland you have no base for any argument that they shouldn't be afraid ... Boogey-Man argument or not.

Agreed. But everyone should always be careful abroad. Particularly before, during, and after a football match. If you are a visible minority, I would be extra cautious; but if you want to go to Euro, there will be ample security and the vast majority of people in Poland (and I'll assume the Ukraine) are just as decent as anywhere else (if not more so, in my experience).

To flip things around a bit, a lot of people said to stay away from South Africa, that it would be a security nightmare and dangerous (implicitly for white people, though probably for everyone). What came of this? I don't recall of any Canadians being robbed or kidnapped at gun point.

bili said: I suspect most of you argue with me because you just don't like me.

Haven't we heard this song and dance before? (Looking at YOU OldFan! :-h )

nobody disagrees with him. He agrees with me. Everyone disagrees with me.

I know how to connect dots.

I would like to point out that racism is not Ukraines biggest problem at the moment. General violence towards anybody who is unable to defend himself or themselves is. It has been and will be a problem until the parliament of the country regularly - and by that I mean almost every year - is like this

I'm from Hungary and Ukraine is a neighbouring country, and never in my life thought it was a great idea to cross the border, especially after the soviets stopped controlling the country. <- that really sounds like i hate Ukrainians in general and is not a PC statement at all.

There are issues with racism and many other things in those countries we live so far away, and it's really disappointing to see so many opinions about stuff even I'm not comfortable forming a word about what's going on in those countries.

disclaimer: I didn't see the video and I don't think there is anything new or surprising to me in it.

Found this comment on the Guardian forums accurate/well articulated:

_"Polish league football has problems, yes, but that has very little to do with what will happen at Euro 2012, since the people that go visit such events are usually a completely different demographic to the fans watching Polish or Ukrainian league football. I would be surprised if any of the Ultra groups get into the stadia. They'll be priced and policed out. Instead you'll have well- off fair- weather fans, international fans, and a fair bit of corporates.

Also, what was not mentioned in the Panorama report is that the Polish authorities have been trying to crack down on hooliganism since 2009, to an extent that would be considered draconian in Germany (including suing helicopter surveillance during matches, for example)."_

Those disgusting demonstrations need to be stomped out hard, no doubt about that BUT I don't think I'd advise someone of a visible minority to avoid a city like Warsaw, which is a popular tourist destination, increasingly international metropolitan city and for the most part clean, modern, friendly and accommodating. That said, I'd understand their trepidation and fear after seeing the BBC programme. There are admittedly outlying parts of Warsaw I (as a white Pole) wouldn't want to wander into at night.

Interesting link right above from Bad_Gones too.

I'm curious - has anybody here actually attended a World Cup or Euro?

From my personal experience - they are nothing but good times.

Didn't expect much more than that from you.

I'm curious - has anybody here actually attended a World Cup or Euro?

From my personal experience - they are nothing but good times.

Yes Euro 2000, as well as several Euro & WC qualifiers...for a long time supporting the national team was not an Ajax thing.

I do recall some fairly large scale rioting in the NL/Belgium euros in Belgium and a French copper being kicked to within an inch of his life by German nazis at the WC in france.

So which WC did you experience?

bili said: 1998 - nothing but great memories. Encouraged a Japanese friend to go to Euro 2008 - he inherited that Dutch team and followed them because the supporters were so friendly. His first int'l experience was Dutch supporters - some guys like to start on the top.

I was in the town that French policeman got beat up that day... didn't hear about it until later.

I'm not saying these events are perfect. But I never felt unsafe.

Following the national team is pretty much 100% different from the club experience.

So who besides MKieltyka & I is going to be in Poland?

VanCityVilla: wow! you're friend's very lucky! :)

BTW. Here's a new article from the Guardian reporting on criticisms of the Panorama program:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/06/panorama-attacked-sensationalist-euro-2012-racism-claims