Racism at Euros

MATT1CUS

interesting Article About Racism in Ukraine and Poland ahead of the Euros

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18192375

GoF

Just downloading the show just now.

Should be an interesting watch.

bili

Non issue.

If people stay home for fears of violence - their loss.

MATT1CUS

GoF said: Just downloading the show just now.

Should be an interesting watch.

do you have a link to that? i can't find anything so far

GoF · Post edited by GoF at 2012-05-28 14:34:52

It's on a private tracker site (http://www.uknova.com) that I use.

Not sure if they're accepting new sign ups at the moment.

If not, it will probably be up on http://www.fbtz.com/forum later.

Neeskens1974 · Post edited by Neeskens1974 at 2012-05-28 15:12:29

bili said: Non issue.

If people stay home for fears of violence - their loss.

Have you ever been in a football riot involving racist supporters and skins? I have, three times, once in Paris, Amsterdam and once in Germany. On a separate occasion with a black mate at PSG in the bad old days he was threatened and spat at. Against Hajduk Split I witnessed thousands of WP boneheads running riot and sieg-heiling.

No doubt it is 100% worse the further east you go. 100%.

You don't know what you are talking about. I think a black fan going to cities like Kharkov or Kiev who is caught out alone is in serious danger - even more so as an England fan.

[toned down a bit]

SAFC_Yank

Was listening to Five Live a bit today. Sol Campbell was quoted from that Panorama broadcast saying no Black or Asian should go, the risk was too high.

That got followed with an interview with a Brit of South Asian heritage who said he was going, that he'd gone to South Africa in 2010 and heard the same sort of horror stories about crime and had no issues. He didn't question that there were problems with racism but seemed to be saying going was the best way to overcome it and beat it.

Neeskens1974

SAFC_Yank said: Was listening to Five Live a bit today. Sol Campbell was quoted from that Panorama broadcast saying no Black or Asian should go, the risk was too high.

That got followed with an interview with a Brit of South Asian heritage who said he was going, that he'd gone to South Africa in 2010 and heard the same sort of horror stories about crime and had no issues. He didn't question that there were problems with racism but seemed to be saying going was the best way to overcome it and beat it.

He's right to go - he should also take care.

I'll never forget that when I first started going down Stamford Bridge in the mid-80's you still had Jason Marriner types talking about niggers and coons (as well as 'cathlicks' and yids) in pubs and on the terraces....that died out mostly over the years. It was fucking horrible.

bili

Neeskens1974 said:

bili said: Non issue.

If people stay home for fears of violence - their loss.

Have you ever been in a football riot involving racist supporters and skins? I have, three times, once in Paris, Amsterdam and once in Germany. On a separate occasion with a black mate at PSG in the bad old days he was threatened and spat at. Against Hajduk Split I witnessed thousands of WP boneheads running riot and sieg-heiling.

No doubt it is 100% worse the further east you go. 100%.

You don't know what you are talking about. I think a black fan going to cities like Kharkov or Kiev who is caught out alone is in serious danger - even more so as an England fan.

[toned down a bit]

Never been in a riot - I don't think there will be any sort of riot during the Euros so the point is moot.

You can't live your life in fear.

Neeskens1974

No, you can't live your life in fear. But when you've been in the middle of a race riot with people who want to kill you, you can advise caution. Some of these types wouldn't bat an eyelid knifing a black man or kicking him to death.

It may be overblown and I hope it is.

ibeep

bili said: Non issue.

If people stay home for fears of violence - their loss.

I'm guessing after you're done school you're not going to run for office?

bili

There are worries about idiots at every major soccer tournament. Usually nothing comes of it.

MKieltyka · Post edited by MKieltyka at 2012-05-28 17:03:14

Can't speak for Ukraine but Poland has come a long way in clamping down on this kind of stuff. Most of the trouble happens at a club level and it's becoming increasingly rare. Used to be that families shied away from Polish league matches because of the ultras, but with new stadiums/security measures and even cultural shifts that's starting to change. It's a disgrace that kind of hooliganism still exists in the world and I do think the problem is worse in eastern Europe for sure, as Neeskens1974 mentioned. I've personally never seen anything like the clips on Panorama, but then again I'm a white Pole living in Canada.

The fact international organizations/governments, etc. are overseeing the tournament and security alone will cut down on incidents and the kind of people attending matches. Reputations are on the line, so even the slightest hint of trouble making won't be tolerated. I'm not expecting to see many stories like this once the tournament begins.

EDIT - Just for disclosure I've only seen the couple minute clip on the BBC website. Watching the full programme now.

MKieltyka · Post edited by MKieltyka at 2012-05-28 17:30:03

Ugly scenes for sure, shame this kind of thing has been allowed to grow over the years. Small group ruin it for both countries. There's really no defending or explaining it away. Here's a YouTube link to the feature, don't know how long it'll be up:

MATT1CUS

Pretty awful how the authorities are stern on saying nothing bad has happened, when it's clearly on film.

Bad_Gones

Speechless.

tim13

It's chromosomal percentages people. That's all. Get over it! No, lets kill each other over it. Some humans give the whole race a bad name. Pathetic. Irony is that black Africans are the only pure humans. All European and Asians have some (2-3%) Neanderthal DNA but black Africans don't. Race, religion and nationalism are the 3 biggest ways to divide and conquer people. Seems to still be working in some places. Sad.

Hopefully the security will do their thing and keep all safe and the idiots off camera and microphone.

BianconeroSouthsider

MATT1CUS said: Pretty awful how the authorities are stern on saying nothing bad has happened, when it's clearly on film.

Reminds me of the incident involving Chelsea and Napoli during the Champions League. Napoli fans were standing outside of Chelsea's hotel, and when the African players walked into the lobby to meet for lunch, the Napoli fans started to make monkey noises and were hopping up and down. It really is terrible how bad some places in Europe are in this regard.

rodderzzz

The players will be fine as they're so heavily protected, any black or asian fans going out there are taking their life in their hands no doubt, especially in the ukraine.

Bad_Gones

Not only is it sad that this is allowed to exist, it's sad the UEFA rewards countries that allow it.

Solar

Not good that even police are turning a blind eye. Not exactly what I would call a family section. Sure glad I live in a place like Vancouver.

bili

rodderzzz said: The players will be fine as they're so heavily protected, any black or asian fans going out there are taking their life in their hands no doubt, especially in the ukraine.

LOL - LOL - thanks for the good laugh before bed!

SAFC_Yank

Bad_Gones said: Not only is it sad that this is allowed to exist, it's sad the UEFA rewards countries that allow it.

I understand that point of view, but it was very interesting what this guy on Five Live said. He said, these are economically deprived countries that also have very homogeneous populations, and that a whole lot of places tut-tutting now had exactly the same attitudes in the 1950s and 60s. He thought having the Euros there, and people of his background visiting, might actually help attitudes in the long run.

I don't know that I share his optimism, but I did find it quite interesting, maybe even refreshing.

One side note: He described himself as Scottish-Asian, and said if he waited for Scotland to qualify, he'd never end up going. :-)

Jay_Duke

Next time someone says that living in Vancouver and playing soccer isn't worth the extra money to play in a league in eastern europe somewhere, let me remind them of this video. Astonishing.

VanCityVilla

Downloaded this program last night and I highly reccommened it. Absolutely shocking the racism that still exists at these football stadiums in Poland and Ukraine.

bili

SAFC_Yank said:

Bad_Gones said: Not only is it sad that this is allowed to exist, it's sad the UEFA rewards countries that allow it.

I understand that point of view, but it was very interesting what this guy on Five Live said. He said, these are economically deprived countries that also have very homogeneous populations, and that a whole lot of places tut-tutting now had exactly the same attitudes in the 1950s and 60s. He thought having the Euros there, and people of his background visiting, might actually help attitudes in the long run.

I don't know that I share his optimism, but I did find it quite interesting, maybe even refreshing.

One side note: He described himself as Scottish-Asian, and said if he waited for Scotland to qualify, he'd never end up going. :-)

Not everybody lives in utopia. Up until about 20 years ago the Poles and Ukraines were living under communist regimes. Of course they have catching up to do.

What I find hilarious is the view that it's dangerous to go to watch the Euros.

Proggie

My SE Asian friend got chased by skins in Scotland. He's coming to Poland for euros (but skipping Ukraine)

Bad_Gones

I'm glad you chimed in Tym. Curious to know your take on the film. Obviously it's not representative of the entire country, but how fairly does the documentary portray the situation?

ibeep

Proggie said: My SE Asian friend got chased by skins in Scotland. He's coming to Poland for euros (but skipping Ukraine)

But according to Bili, it's not dangerous at all and he shouldn't live his life in fear! I'm sure the skins were chasing your SE Asian friend to convince him to have a cup of tea with them. Nothing wrong with that.

bili

ibeep said:

Proggie said: My SE Asian friend got chased by skins in Scotland. He's coming to Poland for euros (but skipping Ukraine)

But according to Bili, it's not dangerous at all and he shouldn't live his life in fear! I'm sure the skins were chasing your SE Asian friend to convince him to have a cup of tea with them. Nothing wrong with that.

So there will be a bunch of Scottish skinheads at the Euros?

ibeep

You're right, I forgot they only live in Scotland.

FootyMonster

bili said:

ibeep said:

Proggie said: My SE Asian friend got chased by skins in Scotland. He's coming to Poland for euros (but skipping Ukraine)

But according to Bili, it's not dangerous at all and he shouldn't live his life in fear! I'm sure the skins were chasing your SE Asian friend to convince him to have a cup of tea with them. Nothing wrong with that.

So there will be a bunch of Scottish skinheads at the Euros?

Why even bother? Don't be thick headed and try to have a proper debate about it, but don't go and get all defensive because your part of the world is considered dangerous. You think Brasil will be any different?

bili · Post edited by bili at 2012-05-29 11:40:08

I don't get the connection between skinheads in Scotland and Euro 2012.

It's not dangerous. The story is sensationalism. And FYI - it's not my part of the world.

Should the world not come to Vancouver in 2015 because of our racists or gang problem:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-supremacists-charged-vancouver-hate-crimes-002217821.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/18/bc-wall-centre-homicide.html

Don't be so naive and open your eyes. It's the BBC FFS.

Bad_Gones

So that video footage was staged then?

Brenton

And here's some anti-gay legislation and violence in the Ukraine:

http://www.allout.org/en/actions/ukraine

Ukraine's legislature is about to vote a brand new bill into law that will make it illegal to be gay or lesbian in public. President Viktor Yanukovych has the power to stop the law, but has chosen to stay silent on the growing anti-gay sentiment.

The President says a new alliance with the European Union is his #1 Priority. As officials from Ukraine prepare to meet with an EU delegation on human rights this Friday, it's time to finally bring this issue to light and force the President Yanukovych to speak out against these laws.

Will you take one moment to call on President Yanukovych to condemn the laws before his meeting on Friday? Every single voice of opposition makes a real difference.

Here's a story about the Pride parade in Kyiv (Kiev) being cancelled because of the threat of violence:

Police advised pride organizers to abandon the march just 30 minutes before it was due to start. They claimed 500 ultra-right football hooligans were en route to the rally point with the intention of preventing the march from going ahead.

Two activists were beaten up and tear gassed by a dozen youths in central Kyiv after those already gathered for the march were evacuated with police escort.

“It has been clear from the start that the Kyiv police department did not want this march to go ahead. Their reluctance to commit to the event and to put adequate security measures in place to protect demonstrators left organizers fearing for their safety,” said Max Tucker, Ukraine campaigner at Amnesty International.

A senior Kyiv police official had previously told pride organizers that he was not prepared to put his officers in harm’s way for the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) community.

Subhedgehog

bili said: I don't get the connection between skinheads in Scotland and Euro 2012.

It's not dangerous. The story is sensationalism. And FYI - it's not my part of the world.

Should the world not come to Vancouver in 2015 because of our racists or gang problem:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-supremacists-charged-vancouver-hate-crimes-002217821.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/18/bc-wall-centre-homicide.html

Don't be so naive and open your eyes. It's the BBC FFS.

So... Let's ignore the players recounting that they are constantly racially taunted. Let's ignore the people all saying that it happens every game, all over the countries that are to host the Euro. Let's ignore the videos of matches where hundreds of people are throwing up racist hand signals and holding up signs. Let's ignore the video of people being attacked, unprovoked, in one of the stadiums that will host matches in the Euro this year. Let's ignore the video of the people who were attacked saying they got no help from the police. Let's ignore all of those things.

Let's hold up a paper thin straw man argument on two topics, only one of which is related to what is being discussed. Then let's accuse others of being naive and top it off with a throwaway shot at one of the most respected English language broadcasting and production company in the world.

Am I doing it right? Is that how you put together a cogent argument? Or is that how you leak idiocy onto the internet? You decide, this is too tricky for me to figure out.

bili · Post edited by bili at 2012-05-29 12:12:50

Subhedgehog said:

bili said: I don't get the connection between skinheads in Scotland and Euro 2012.

It's not dangerous. The story is sensationalism. And FYI - it's not my part of the world.

Should the world not come to Vancouver in 2015 because of our racists or gang problem:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-supremacists-charged-vancouver-hate-crimes-002217821.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/18/bc-wall-centre-homicide.html

Don't be so naive and open your eyes. It's the BBC FFS.

So... Let's ignore the players recounting that they are constantly racially taunted. Let's ignore the people all saying that it happens every game, all over the countries that are to host the Euro. Let's ignore the videos of matches where hundreds of people are throwing up racist hand signals and holding up signs. Let's ignore the video of people being attacked, unprovoked, in one of the stadiums that will host matches in the Euro this year. Let's ignore the video of the people who were attacked saying they got no help from the police. Let's ignore all of those things.

Let's check back here in 6 weeks. You tell me how many people were hurt or died because of racism during the Euros.

And my point is not that racism does or does not exist... my point is people shouldn't be afraid to travel to Euros.

I'll re-post that documentary and laugh at you guys thinking it would be so terrible for minorities.

rodderzzz · Post edited by rodderzzz at 2012-05-29 12:18:07

Nobody is saying that people are going to get hurt or die, although that is a realistic possibility should some poor bastard walk into the wrong part of town. There will however, be fuckin shit loads of racist abuse going on. You are obviously new to football from a tactical point of view and its culture as evidenced by many of your posts.

Bad_Gones

billi, maybe you missed my question. I'm curious how you can dismiss the documentary as sensationalist. That video footage didn't just get made up did it?

bili

rodderzzz said: Nobody is saying that people are going to get hurt or die, although that is a realistic possibility should some poor bastard walk into the wrong part of town. There will however, be fuckin shit loads of racist abuse going on. You are obviously new to football from a tactical point of view or its culture as evidenced by many of your posts.

Yes they are saying people will get hurt or die.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2012/05/29/sp-soccer-euro-protest-racism-accusations.html

"Former England captain Sol Campbell said in the program broadcast Monday in Britain that fans should not travel to those countries because "you could end up coming back in a coffin.""

You must be as new to reading as I am to football.

bili

Bad_Gones said: billi, maybe you missed my question. I'm curious how you can dismiss the documentary as sensationalist. That video footage didn't just get made up did it?

I am not dismissing the documentary as sensationalist. I am dismissing the documentary as a reason to say "you could end up coming back in a coffin" or to stay home from Euro.

prawnsideFC

billi, I am a very tolerant person...but I am growing tired of your constant negativity.

bili

yes - i'm saying nobody is coming home in a coffin. how negative of me.

ibeep · Post edited by ibeep at 2012-05-29 12:55:45

bili said:

Bad_Gones said: billi, maybe you missed my question. I'm curious how you can dismiss the documentary as sensationalist. That video footage didn't just get made up did it?

I am not dismissing the documentary as sensationalist. I am dismissing the documentary as a reason to say "you could end up coming back in a coffin" or to stay home from Euro.

The documentary isn't the reason you could say "you could end up coming back in a coffin", racist thugs are. And the documentary provides some footage and report that those thugs do exist. I tend to believe reporters or journalists who have experience in this matter, not someone who randomly tells me it's overblown without stating any real reason why.

Nothing might happen during the Euros this summer but how fair is it for visible minorities, who are travelling to support their team, to have to worry about being subjected (potentially) to harassment, racial abuse, and threats of violence? At a FIFA-sanctioned event, no less.

Bad_Gones · Post edited by Bad_Gones at 2012-05-29 12:52:58

bili said: I am not dismissing the documentary as sensationalist.

So you didn't write this then?

bili said: It's not dangerous. The story is sensationalism.

I guess I just made that part up then, like the BBC made up the video footage.

prawnsideFC · Post edited by prawnsideFC at 2012-05-29 12:54:13

bili said: yes - i'm saying nobody is coming home in a coffin. how negative of me.

I am talking about how you complain that BC place sucks, how you praise ultra groups for holding up football matches, how you dismiss an ultra group throwing seats at people and when there is actually a legitimate problem such as racism you just ignore it and say everything is fine.

bili

Bad_Gones said:

bili said: I am not dismissing the documentary as sensationalist.

So you didn't write this then?

bili said: It's not dangerous. The story is sensationalism.

I guess I just made that part up then, like the BBC made up the video footage.

Believe what you want. The story is sensationalist in the sense that it concludes it won't be safe at Euro.

Ghostdog · Post edited by Ghostdog at 2012-05-29 12:56:48

I'm beginning to think bili is a contrarian. Marginally better than a troll. Marginally.

bili · Post edited by bili at 2012-05-29 12:59:32

OK - let's see how many people come home in coffins from Euro.

DannyBoy

Yeah guys... let's ignore the stabbings, beatings and racial abuse because death is what really matters.

Bad_Gones

bili said: OK - let's see how many people come home in coffins from Euro.

Seriously, is that your only issue? As long as nobody dies ... no harm no foul? Or am I being sensationalist?

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